Eye On Horror
Eye On Horror
A Group Outing to Shelby Oaks
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This week, the boys are joined by composer James Burkholder, and editors Patrick Lawrence and Brett W. Bachman of the new horror film SHELBY OAKS! The group dive into the storied history behind the film, going from Kickstarter hit to being picked up by Neon and the changes along the way, mood and pacing, balancing the different format components of the film, and more!
Also in the episode, the boys review Bugonia and more Frankenstein! Its all new on EYE ON HORROR!
Movies mentioned in this episode:
https://letterboxd.com/correianbbq/list/eye-on-horror-podcast-sn-8-ep-13/
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Get more horror movie news at: https://ihorror.com
Welcome to Eye on Horror, the official podcast of ihorror.com this is episode 153 otherwise known as season eight. Episode 13. I am your host, James Jay Edwards, and with me, as always, is your other host, Jacob Davison, how you doing?
Jacob Davidson:Jacob, doing good now that it's Halloween, it is
James Jay Edwards:had. Today is Halloween For those keeping track at home, we are recording on Halloween. So Happy Halloween. Everybody also with us, as always, is your other other host, Jon Correia, how you doing?
Jonathan Correia:Correia, tired. You know the usual complaints.
James Jay Edwards:I don't even want to hear about tired from you, too. You guys know my work schedule. Let's, let's jump right in to this, because we also have some exciting guests that are SPOILER ALERT taking up most of the episode. What? What's been going on? I saw something that opens actually. I don't know if it's this week or next week, but the New Yorgos Lanthimos movie Begonia. You guys heard about this?
Jacob Davidson:Of course. Yeah, yeah. It played at Beyond Fest, and I think it does have a wide release now. I know it's playing at like Alamo Drafthouse. Did
James Jay Edwards:you see it at beyond fest? No, I didn't. Okay, this is, it's pretty much the next logical progression in in what Yorgos Lanthimos is, because it is probably one of his more accessible movies. But it's also very Yorgos. It's about these two conspiracy theorists. One is Jesse Plemons, and they they're convinced that aliens from the Andromeda galaxy are living on Earth and they're going to destroy the earth. And they have determined that this high powered female executive, who is played by Emma Stone, is one of them. So they kidnap her, and they basically want her to take them to her leader, you know, so that they can save the earth. And it is, it's a very your ghost movie in that it's just like, real quirky and weird. It's, you know, in sci fi, but it here's the thing about it. The big difference between this and Lanthimos other movies is that this one, he lets his actors roll with it, where normally Yorgos Lanthimos movies are. You just get, like, those wooden, straight line readings, you know, like The Killing of a Sacred Deer. It's like a surgeon can never kill a patient. An anesthesiologist can kill a patient, but a surgeon can't, you know, you get those real straight linings. He actually lets his actors run with this. So it's not just completely stoic performances. And the performances are terrific. Jesse Plemons and Emma Stone are both then the other conspiracy theorist is, I think it's his first movie. His name is Aiden delvis. He's the closest thing to a Yorgos performance you get, because he's, like, developmentally challenged, so he's so he does kind of like the but what are we doing here? Teddy, you know, like, he's more of like the questioning, but he's completely manipulated by actually both of the other two. It almost comes off as like a stage play, because it's real contained, and most of the movie is just the three of them and and the alliances and manipulation just completely shifts the whole time. So um, it's, it's really good though it is. And it's, there's, it does this thing where there's a twist, and then it untwists, and then it twists back again. It's like, one of those things where it's like, the twist seems obvious, and then they talk you out of it, and then, nope, that really was the tweet. It's, it's pretty crazy, though, but Yeah,
Jacob Davidson:funny enough, I did see the original movie that it. It was based on Korean planet, yeah, Save the Green Planet. Yeah, save the Green Planet, the South Korean film.
James Jay Edwards:Yeah, it is it. I have not seen that, but I'm curious to see how close it is to that. Because, yeah, it is. It's an English language. I mean, it's, it's a, it's an Americanized remake of that, because, you know, because it takes place in America and it's English language, but it is, I kind of feel like the orgos has found a bit of. A muse in Emma Stone now, oh yeah, and also, Jesse Plemons might be one of his go tos now too. But yeah, it's, it's pretty crazy, and I wouldn't be surprised if it gets Oscar talk, which is great because it's, at its root, it's a science fiction movie,
Jonathan Correia:yeah? Well, I mean, em and Emma Stone have made three movies in three years together. So, and that's not their first three, you know, there's what their fourth or
James Jay Edwards:fifth film together? Well, she was in was her first movie with him. The Favorite, yeah, yeah. And then Poor Things and kinds Well, Jesse Plemons did Kinds of Kindness as well with them. So, yeah, it's, it's, but it's Yorgos being Yorgos. And I feel like he's getting, I feel like he's, he gets attention. Now, you know, with with The Favorite and Poor Things, he gets Oscar attention. So, yeah, it's, it's crazy. There's the screening I went to. They had a barber truck there. And the whole thing is they shave Emma stones head because they think that her hair has the aliens tracking device in it. So the whole thing with our screening was, you got preferential seating at the screening. It was a promo screening if you let them shave your head.
Jacob Davidson:Oh, yeah, no, that was in my neighborhood. And, yeah, I mean, I did want to see the movie, but I didn't want to see it that bad. I almost went to it. The
James Jay Edwards:rep actually said, Are you going to shave your head? And I'm about, I usually do do, like, a buzz cut kind of a thing, and I'm about due for a haircut. And I and I asked her, I'm like, hey, you know how short are they going to go? She's all to the scalp. And I'm like, Nah, I'll do Henry Rollins. I won't do Mr. Clean. And I already, I already had the priority seating anyway for press, but you know, I was gonna take one for the team, and you know, so I could be in the bald picture with everybody else, but I didn't want to go cue ball. Understandable.
Jonathan Correia:Well, Jay, I know you talked about it last time, but Jacob and I finally saw Guillermo del Toro's Frankenstein. Yeah. What do
Jacob Davidson:you think? I loved it. I thought it was a brilliant adaptation of Mary Shelley's novel with Guillermo signature spin.
James Jay Edwards:And what did what do you guys think about the pacing? Because, because I thought it was a beautiful movie, but like I said, I kind of had issues with the pacing, did you guys?
Jacob Davidson:I did not the whole time. I was never bored. I was interested in pretty much every scene. I mean, yeah, I mean, it's a little slow at times, but still, the performances still kept me interested in the story, particularly when the creature is, you know, on its own and befriends the old man like that. It does go a bit slow, but at the same time, I was very compelled.
Jonathan Correia:Yeah, I like that. It marinated in these scenes quite a bit, because this is like, as close to the book, as like any adaptation has gotten. But it also had that extra layer of what Guillermo del Toro was working through or having while with the film, with the whole put it bluntly, daddy issues. Of it all of both Victor with his father, and kind of passing that along to his relationship with the monster, and like, just kind of like talking about, like, how that goes. And I like that. It marinated in the scenes. The only bit that really kind of threw me off was it was two things. It was Mia Goth introduction. I thought that dinner scene where they're just like, oh, well, you've heard her talk before, and then all sudden, she's talking about war, when Frankenstein, when Victor's talking about, you know, his experiments, it was that, and also the milk that was so uncomfortable. Why did Victor keep drinking milk like that? I don't know. What? If that's just a quirk they put in with it, or if there's like, a deeper meaning, either way, I was just like that, grown ass man is drinking an uncomfortable amount of milk. Maybe, maybe it was just a highlight how evil he is, I don't know. But yeah, the milk thing was rough, but I loved it. I esthetically and and thematically, I really do feel like it is a culmination of, like, 20 plus years of what Guillermo del Toro has been doing. I mean, I still, I still love Pan's Labyrinth and Crimson Peak more. But, you know, I still really love this adaptation and the creature design and acting by Jacob B Lord. He was phenomenal, especially since he is a talking Adam like so I loved, especially that you when you the progression of how he's talking and how he's moving from especially when you know it's going into part two from the mons. Side, it's like, oh God, is he gonna still talk like he did, like he does with the blind man, but with the progression of intelligence and cognitive was there. So it was, yeah, I and the random bouts of violence is great that that opening scene, I very loudly just scream, fuck back. Break. That was crazy.
James Jay Edwards:That is, it is one of the most memorable opening scenes you're gonna find, you know, you know, we and, and then the whole thing, when, when they get Victor onto the boat, and he's like, how many of your men do you kill, you know? I mean, he knew what was after him, you know. So, yeah,
Jonathan Correia:no, it was great. There's gonna be some toxic Twunks out there that are gonna be dressed up like the creature when he's in the basement. Though, calling it
Jacob Davidson:also it's interesting that the design for Adam was based off of the Bernie Wrightson sketch art of Frankenstein. Have you seen those? Oh, yeah. Well, you know the horror artist Bernie writes. And yeah, he did. I think a comic book adaptation of Frankenstein years ago. And I think Del Toro said that that was a prime influence for that specific design.
Jonathan Correia:Okay, yeah, I thought, I think I know which one you're talking about because of the hair and stuff. Yeah, awesome.
James Jay Edwards:Let's move on now to let's segue into our interviews for this week, and let's talk about Shelby oaks. You guys have both seen Shelby oaks? Right? Yep, yeah. Saw that beyond fest. Would you guys? Oh, cool. You saw it. I actually had to see it on the little screen. This, you know, we were talking before we hit record, that you guys thought that I had seen Frankenstein on a small screen. Nope, I saw it on IMAX. It was, it was, and that's a big screen. Or if you have a chance to see Frankenstein in a theater,
Jonathan Correia:do it on IMAX, yeah, it was IMAX. I mean, I thought on 35 but still,
James Jay Edwards:yeah, Frankenstein's a big screener. Shelby oaks, I did see on a little screen though, um, but I think it works that way, because Shelby oaks, it's kind of part like true crime documentary, part found footage, and then just part narrative film, but the way that it's all stitched together, and we'll get to that in a little bit. But the way it's stitched together is kind of brilliant. The way that it the way that it comes together, it's basically about on this, these true crime podcaster kind of like this team who go missing, and it's, it's kind of the search for them. And, you know, of course, they're investigating, like, kind of, like a, like a ghost it's, it's not, it's not really true crime. They're like paranormal research. That's, aren't they called the paranormal paranoids, or something like that paranormal paranoids, yeah, so, so it's not really true crime. It's, it's ghost investigators and they go missing, and everybody's looking for him, but, um, yeah, it's, it's, it's a pretty intense movie. Actually, it's about as intense as found footage can get, even though it's not technically found footage, but there are elements of it, but you guys think of
Jacob Davidson:Shelby oaks. Oh, oh, yeah, no, I'd say it still counts as found footage, considering that the found footage is such a major plot point. And actually, at the beyond fest screen, we all got DVDs. Actually, I got one right here, who took Riley Brennan, which has the footage from the paranormal paranoids in Shelby Oaks. Oh,
James Jay Edwards:that's cool. That's a really cool promo thing they did there.
Jacob Davidson:Yeah, no, it was very, it was a very good way to hype up the film and the found footage aspects.
James Jay Edwards:That is, for those of you, I mean, we're audio only, but Jacob held up it's, it basically, is a is, like, a burn DVD in Sharpie says, and it's in like, like, one of those envelopes you buy it, like fries, you know, has got some blood splatter on it. Yeah? Ooh, blood splatter too. I didn't even notice that. That's a pretty that's a brilliant promo item. That's, that's pretty cool.
Jacob Davidson:Oh, yeah, no. I always do appreciate a movie like that going the extra mile, very Blair Witch, but, yeah, no, I'd still say still counts as found footage, like we were talking about. It's kind of a mixture, because there is found footage, there is a mockumentary aspect, there is the narrative aspect. So it is an interesting way of putting the the film together with three different mediums.
Jonathan Correia:Yeah, I definitely, because the opening is all true crime mixed with the found footage of the paranoid, paranormal paranoids. And so I definitely like for that first like 10 minutes or so I was saying they're going like, Oh no, it's another it's another fake true crime or found footage about YouTubers going. Missing? Oh, no, is it open?
James Jay Edwards:It opens with, this is the last time anyone has sought saw her alive.
Jonathan Correia:And you're like the mockumentary of like you search for her and stuff, and then, but
James Jay Edwards:then, it does seem like it's going to be real typical, because it does the whole Blair Witch. A year later, their footage was, you know,
Jonathan Correia:but then, but then the moment happens where it's just like, oh, oh, that's not what we're doing. Oh,
James Jay Edwards:okay. And, like, Behind the Masking it here, yeah,
Jonathan Correia:like, I wasn't, I wasn't, like, not into it, but I definitely, I've been, we've, I think we've all seen, you know, missing YouTuber found footage films. There's their dime a dozen. But I really enjoyed like, that complete shift the and then, not only that, but like, a lot of times, these type of movies kind of gloss over the personal relationships in favor of, like, trying to be more spooky, trying to be more scary, and all that stuff. But this movie really does do a good job of, like, really not letting go of the fact that, like, this is a person looking for their missing sibling, and so it does add weight to it, and especially later on, when they're when you're discovering the truths and getting behind stuff. Because I don't want to spoil that third act, that third act just is bonkers, and I, and I had a lot, a lot of fun with that, but it's really great. And even so, like, there's a whole bit with, like, an abandoned prison, and it's just, it's so, oh yeah, it's so dirty I can have and having shot in abandoned prisons, like I could smell that it's but it comes off like it is musty and wet and dirty and and, yeah, it's, it gets pretty nasty at times that movie. It's great.
James Jay Edwards:About as much as will spoil the third act is you're not going to be disappointed with the third act. No, I mean, it really, it your jaw drops in that third act. It's pretty awesome.
Jonathan Correia:It was a weird one, but, yeah, great. I thought great use of like, mixed media pacing and especially space. I think they did a really great job. There were a lot of moments where the shot was was very wide, and it's like, why are we wide? Now I'm looking in that dark corner. I live for that. In the moment. I hate it, because I'm just like, No, now there's something tense about to happen here. But I thought it was and it's
James Jay Edwards:also one of those movies where, like, you're all is something in that dark corner, and you'll swear that you'll see something move even when there's nothing moving there. It like plays with you, like that too. I mean, it was shot really well, like that. So yeah.
Jonathan Correia:And now to get into our main topic this week, we are, of course, being joined by some of the filmmakers behind Shelby oaks. We have composer James Burkholder, we have Brett Bachman and Patrick Lawrence. The editors. Welcome guys. Awesome to have you guys here. Brett, welcome back again. I know it's been a couple months.
Brett W. Bachman:Hey, happy to be here. Yeah. Thank you for having me back,
Jonathan Correia:of course. And the day that we are recording, it is October 24 which, of course, is release day for Shelby oaks, Congratulations, everybody. I know it's been quite a long road for this film to get made and out there.
Patrick Lawrence:Yes,
Jonathan Correia:awesome. So as our viewers know, we always like to start off our our interviews by asking our guests, how did you get started? What? What kind of got that spark going and got your career going? Let's start with you.
James Burkholder:James, yeah, well, I played, I played music my whole life. I started playing violin at eight and guitar at 10, and then quickly stopped playing violin because I was like guitars way, way more fun. And yeah, I grew up like playing guitar, playing in bands, writing songs. And then after I went to college, I got a gig, touring for another artist as their guitar player. And I was doing that for a while, which was really fun, but decided I wanted to not be on the road all the time, and so I've always, I've always really loved film music, but it never really seemed like something possible for me to get into. But I kind of just decided, You know what, I'm going to give this a shot. I started taking some classes at UCLA Extension, which is actually a really great film scoring program, some orchestration classes and stuff like that. And then I got an internship with the Newton brothers, who I've worked with for many, many years, and started assisting. Am, and, you know, doing additional music and additional synth design and stuff like that for them. And that's, that's kind of how I got into film scoring.
Jonathan Correia:Wow, that's awesome. And so you've been working with the Newton brothers ever since, yeah, especially on this project, exactly, yeah, that's awesome. What about you, Patrick, what's the what's the origins of Patrick?
Patrick Lawrence:Lawrence, well, you know, I went to school to be a director. I wanted to be a director, and I was taking a semester of college where I was doing a film production course and a video production course at the same time, and we, like, one class, I was editing eight millimeter film on a steam back. Another class, we were going out and shooting on DV tape and then editing it in, you know, the next hour. So that sort of realization of, you know, what editing could be, in terms of, you know, what I wanted to do as a director, like really fascinated me. And so I was also playing music and in a band. So I started doing video stuff for the band, and when the band fizzled out, I decided to do filmmaking full time, and started directing and editing music videos for bands that I knew and that got me connections within the film community, and I just started working as a professional editor After that, and moved to LA in 2015 and basically left all the work I had back home in St Louis behind, and came out here with nothing and no contact, and just had to start from the ground up again. And it just basically built up from there. I did a couple short films in 2016 that ended up getting into Sundance. And so I had two films in Sundance in 2016 and then one of those ended up turning into a feature called Clara's Ghost. And that got me Scare Me. And then after Scare Me, I kind of fell into doing horror comedies. And one of those was a film called Blood Relatives that got me Shelby oaks
Jonathan Correia:love Scare Me, by the way that was
Brett W. Bachman:I will echo that sentiment
Jacob Davidson:great, and working with mini DV tapes really ties into Shelby oaks references.
Patrick Lawrence:You know, I had boxes filled with them that I left home in St Louis, and so he would pull them out and talk about, you know, the technology he wanted to use to, like, edit the tape and everything was like, those were almost all in my wheelhouse. From from doing, like, video podcasting and things for my band, you know, in the 2000s
Brett W. Bachman:my favorite little bit of trivia behind the scenes, or one of my favorite little bits of trivia, was when Chris talks about making these paranoid videos, all the paranormal paranoid stuff, where he set these rules in place. And Patrick, you can elaborate on this, but he was like, I don't want to use any editing software on the film footage component that didn't exist in like, 2008 so he was, like, I was bringing stuff into iMovie and applying, like, the very basic text layers from that perspective,
James Burkholder:it's like, yeah, all
Patrick Lawrence:those things though that he would and and, like, at one point, we were trying to find material that would be like, what would he call it like, crime scene images of what the paranoids would have left behind. And so Chris was pulling out all kinds of technology and things that he had collected over the years and stacking it and making it look like if you just been left behind by the filmmakers.
Jonathan Correia:That's awesome when, when you guys are, when you guys had to search for that type of software, like, was that a bit of a struggle? Because, like, some of that, you got to, like, dig deep on, like, the internet archives or find somewhere
James Burkholder:some of these things on Chris's old computer, right? Yeah, he just had an old computer from that time?
Patrick Lawrence:Yeah, he had an old iMac that, I think, that he just pulled up and was using to do that stuff, open it
Brett W. Bachman:off, blew it off, pray that it would turn on. That's what,
James Burkholder:that's what I'm saying. I'm surprised it even worked at all, not
Jonathan Correia:connecting it to the internet so it wouldn't update, crash the whole thing,
Jacob Davidson:yeah, seeing the original YouTube layout definitely made me nostalgic,
Jonathan Correia:for sure. Oh, man, bring me back to the albino Black Sheep days with early YouTube. And that
Patrick Lawrence:was something that I remember early on him telling me that like he had reached out to YouTube people. And like, gotten permission to use it. And I'll think, like, like, his roots in the YouTube community go so deep that I it was fascinating to me, because somebody who had, like, made youtube com content when it first came out, and, you know, music videos and things like that. But like, he knows things so deep about it, and like, how the numbers work, and who to who to contact for certain things and all that stuff was like, so fascinating to me,
Jonathan Correia:which is integral because, I mean, one of the things, especially when you're trying to portray something as real, like found footage, is there's got to be a level of authenticity. And that kind of kills it when the just those little details where it's like, oh, this is clearly a made up home thing. Or, yeah, that's right, everyone was very you. Or what was it? Me tube was very popular. Sure that thing existed. So having that authenticity really helps sell it. Makes it unsettling a bit. Now, Brett, we've had you on in the past, and we've heard a bit of your origin story. So really, what have you been up to since last time we talked to Gods ago?
Brett W. Bachman:Well, first off, thank you for having me back on the show. Of course, big fan guys, let's see. Yeah, we talked for Companion and Heart Eyes. This has been kind of a crazy year for me. I've by the end of the year, I'll have six feature films that have come out. Thanks, Companion, Heart Eyes, Toxic Avenger last month, Shelby, Rabbit Trap, and then I have a picture called Lone Samurai coming out in December. So it's been busy, I guess, since we last talked, I've started a show with Mr. Mike Flanagan. I've been working on Carrie since early summer, I want to say, and we are actually today. It's not just release day for Shelby, but it is the last day of production for Carrie as well. We are wrapping production on that today, officially starting post production. We've been editing the entire show since for months, but that's very much been keeping me very occupied and very busy.
Jonathan Correia:Man, where have you? Where have you had the time having six things coming out? Jesus,
Brett W. Bachman:I also have children.
Jonathan Correia:I was about to say,
Brett W. Bachman:I don't know. It's somehow it's materialized, and it's been, I'm breathing since February.
Jonathan Correia:The coffee, the coffee pot has never not been full. Sad.
Brett W. Bachman:I'm not for like, six or seven cups a day. It's not healthy.
Jonathan Correia:Ever since I got back from Vegas, I've been doing the bangs every day just to, like, wake up in the morning. I need to start calming down before
Jacob Davidson:as I decide the Toxic Avenger ruled. And it's funny. Another movie I saw it Beyond Fest.
James Burkholder:Thank you. Yeah, I love that movie.
Brett W. Bachman:Thanks, Jacob. Appreciate it. Yeah, I had a fucking blast working on that film. Also a long road to the finish line for that one coming across, but I'm so happy that it's finding its audience after all these years and so much uncertainty about but it certainly found its weirdos. It's found its people that love the weird, sweet, gross, pulpiness of it, and it's the sweet, sweet, saccharin heart with Gore plenty
Jacob Davidson:and vertigo homages, yes,
Brett W. Bachman:oh god, I'm glad everything's about that transformation sequence.
Jacob Davidson:Oh yeah, no, that was incredible. I love it. So getting into it. How did you guys become involved with Shelby oaks and Chris Duckman?
Patrick Lawrence:Oh, I guess I'll go first. Like I said, I done a movie called Blood Relatives, and that was produced by the guys at Paper Street. And while we were in post on that movie, there was this buzz about their next big thing that had just raised $1.4 million on Kickstarter. So, you know, we were all intrigued by it and didn't know much about it. And then when they made their like Keith David casting announcement, that was the thing that I was like, Okay, I'm gonna shoot Aaron Koontz a message, and just kind of like, plant the seed a little bit. And a couple months later, I got the call, and they had wrapped in May of 2022 and this was like, late June, and they sent me the script, and I read it on a plane, and loved it. Was fascinated with it. It was doing a thing that I'd always want to do as a filmmaker myself, which was make a faux documentary that felt realistic, and I was trying to do that with a short film that never happened. And so the first 30 pages of the script were this documentary. So I was like, this is the thing this. This is exactly what I was wanting to do. So I was really hooked on it. And I had a very quick meeting with Chris where I was familiar with him, but I hadn't, I wasn't subscribed. I didn't know, you know, I. Much about him, other than he was a film critic, and we hit it off right away. You know, obviously it's like when you watch his videos, see all the collection he has behind him, and it's much like what I've got going here in this room. And so we just connected right away. And the funny thing was, is that they had given him the hard drive with all the production rolls on it, and he was messing with the movie already, like he, I think he had already cut a version of the movie just sitting there up all night long for, like, two months before I had even started. So we talked about that. And you know, my usual process when I'm brought on after movie is doing the assembly cut, which in this case, took about four weeks, and I didn't want to see what he had done, because I didn't want to be influenced that much. I wanted to have my own spin on it. But what was great about it was that there were things that I figured out that he didn't figure out. He thought they were gonna have to reshoot the ending, all, you know. And I didn't think about it that way. Like, to me, like whatever happened on set didn't matter. Like, I was just like, this is the footage you gave me, so I'm gonna make something work with this and and so I gave him something that, like, solved a lot of problems, and then at the same time, there were things that he had done that I was like, actually, that's pretty good. Let me take that and recreate that and then put my own spin on it. And so that was sort of where we met in the middle, which was really great. So that was the start of it Nice.
Jonathan Correia:That's awesome. What about you, Brett, what did you get brought into Shelby oaks.
Brett W. Bachman:Oh, I, I so I had heard about this movie entering production through through the trades. But also, coincidentally, I went to high school with the post producer of this movie. Yeah, yeah. We both graduated Delma High School, 2005 Maple Valley, Washington, small world, coincidentally, like he's living in Austin now, but I so I had been following the Facebook page of like, what was going on here. I'd heard that Patrick was on this. I didn't really have much. I wasn't too familiar with Chris, but I had been following the news of this. And I was working on Fall of the House of Usher with Mike, and we're working out of this building in Studio City, here in Los Angeles, and one day, I'm in the editing facility, I look down the hallway and I see these folks carting an avid into one of the vacant rooms at the end of the hall, and I'm like, What is going on? Are we getting another show down the hallway? Is someone else leasing the space? And I see Patrick wandering the hallways. What are you doing here? Hi. And it turns out Mike had invited Patrick and Chris to sit in for the kind of set up shop for like, a few days down the hall. And Mike would come in and give some ideas to Chris and some ideas to Patrick, and they would bounce back and forth some stuff. And so that was my opportunity to meet Chris. Went down and exchanged a good pleasantries and talked with him just for like 10 minutes, just to get an idea of what he was doing. And I think was one of his Patrick. I think that was like his first time in Los Angeles, yeah, ever. And so I think he was a little shell shocked about the city, and I think I gave him some restaurant recommendations, but it was a pretty
Patrick Lawrence:good I loved about that was that he was staying at the safari in down the street, and his brain is like, that's the hotel from Apollo 13,
James Burkholder:and True Romance as well.
Brett W. Bachman:But, um, you know, I, I didn't hear anything about the movie for months, but I think the next thing I heard about it was that I was going to Fantasia and the Neon acquisition, which was a big burst of news. And so I was really just happy for Patrick, happy for Chris, happy for this production that, you know, was a grassroots indie. I mean, by definition, like this little passion project that had bloomed and flourished into something really cool that was apparently going to reach a wide audience. And a few months went by and I got an email from Chris. He was like an opportunity has arisen through neon to do some pickups, to do some some things that on the movie that I we wanted to do initially, but we didn't have the resources for and Neon is going to allow us to shoot a new ending, allow us to pick up some additional photography, to redo a scene or two. And he's like, I, you know, Mike has said wonderful things about you. Would you be interested in, you know, looking at these reshoots, but also presenting some ideas for the movie? And then there happened to be a good window of opportunity there, so I took advantage of it, and I set up shop here in my apartment, or here in my house in Alhambra, and loaded up the cut and looked at essentially the movie that had gone to Fantasia, and presented some ideas to Chris, and we noodled on it for under the hood for a few weeks on. Ideas. And they ended up bringing in this material from the reshoots, and we incorporated that, and we took it through a new sound mix. James ended up, I think, making a few new cues on them.
James Burkholder:Yeah, probably three or four, yeah,
Brett W. Bachman:three or four, yeah, three or four new cues. So, yeah, that's my story.
Jonathan Correia:And what about you, James, when were you? When were you brought in? Yeah, so it would have been
James Burkholder:January three years ago. It would have been January 2023, the Newtons hit me up, and this was before it had been announced that Mike was EP ing the movie. And they were like, Hey, we've got this movie. It was like a Kickstarter thing, but Mike really, really likes it. Would you take a look at this? We want you to come on and CO score the film with us. And I was like, yeah, absolutely. I'd love to check it out. And so we got what I'm sure, is one of the first, very first, rough cuts of the film. It had all Tempe effects. And I sat down and watched it with my wife, and it, it was one of the most I've seen rough cuts before. It was the most compelling Rough Cut I've ever seen in my entire life. And I was like, I need to, I need to to get in on this. And so I signed on. But we actually didn't end up there. I think they were re editing it. I don't know exactly what was going on. We didn't end up actually start work on it officially until, like, probably may, I would say, of that year and but in the meantime, I was just stoked. I was stoked on this concept, so I just started writing stuff. I started writing suites, I started writing themes. I started working out, you know, different instrumentations, different different vibes and sounds for different characters and situations, which was really, really awesome. You never, ever get that opportunity as a composer to have that much time to kind of like, play in a sandbox and figure out what you want to do sonically. So by the time we had our first spotting session, we had a ton of music, and we had actually just been like, sending Chris stuff and be like, Hey, here's some music. Like, plug it in where you want to plug it in and see how you like it. And that, that helped us narrow down kind of what we wanted to, what we wanted to do musically. And then, and then, from there, it was just a blast. Like, working with Chris. He's such a he's such an empathetic dude, and he's such and he also, by the way, I've said this in other interviews, but it's very true, he is, has encyclopedic knowledge of film scores. And so the shorthand there between somebody who knows all that stuff and composers is, is, is really quick. And so it was really fun getting to, you know, talk with him about different Patricks brought this up too, but like, he'll tempt Field of Dreams in a horror movie, which is, like, who does that?
Patrick Lawrence:And I love Mike. Clocked it right away.
James Burkholder:Yeah. So that's kind of how I got, got, got brought in, yeah?
Jonathan Correia:Got loved. When people know have that type of knowledge to back up and go, I'm going for this. Go to this, rather than getting a note of like, Can this be more artistic,
James Burkholder:yeah? Can this be a little more make it more yeah? Can this be more blue? I'm like, I don't know. You might be colorblind, man, I don't know what you're talking about,
Jacob Davidson:off of that, what scores did Chris specifically reference in relation to Shelby oaks and what he was going for?
James Burkholder:I mean, there was a bunch of there was a bunch of Newton brothers stuff. It was funny, because it was like, there was stuff. There were scores that I had worked on that were tempting there already. There's like, Dr. Sleep. I think Oculus was in there, I'm pretty sure. But then, like, I mean, the cool thing was that, like, he wasn't ever married to the temp score, which is such a dream as a composer. He was always like, you go do whatever weird shit you guys do, come back and and we'll check it out.
Jonathan Correia:It's always tough when someone's married to the temp score, because it's like, well, we can't do that. Yeah, yeah, that's already done. Yeah,
Patrick Lawrence:yeah. I'll say. What's great about this is that when we found out we were going to be working with the Newtons and the James it gave us the opportunity to start pulling from their library. And we, I can talk about this, I think. But in the third act, Chris and I weren't sure what to do with the music. We had tried a couple things, nothing was really working, and and we had to go into the room with Mike, and I was real nervous, because I knew we were showing him this scene dry, and I knew that the number one note we. Were going to get was what needs score, I know, but once we found out we had the Newtons, it made it easier to go in and pull from their stuff to really build the type of soundscape that we needed for that scene. Yeah. And then James came in and what he wrote just like completely knocked it out of the park. Thanks, dude.
Jonathan Correia:Absolutely, I'd be nice. What a varied catalog, too, with James and the Newtons. I mean, it's, it's not only a lot of project, but there's a lot of mini series, so you could, like, have a lot more to pull from, of different tones and different atmospheres. So understandable and yeah, that third act, I we don't want to spoil anything, but that third act, holy shit, you guys fucking knocked it out of the park.
Brett W. Bachman:Thank you. Yeah, it gets loud at the end. It does, yeah, make it very loud.
Jacob Davidson:Oh, yeah. And something I was interested in asking was because Shelby Oaks is kind of a cross, kind of cross medium in that it's narrative, found footage and documentary. What was it like having to do music in those different formats. Yeah.
James Burkholder:I mean, I think that we really from the get go, like from the first spotting session, we were saying we want it to we want it to feel different, but we don't want it to feel like a different movie, if that makes sense. We want it to all so thematically, everything kind of stays pretty similar throughout, like we're using the same themes throughout to connect everything in your mind. But you know, in the in the opening section, for instance, there's that Sonic palette like you, you don't end up hearing that again in in the movie, because we've, we've kind of shifted focus at that point, and me and Andy and Andy and Taylor, we kind of got together, and we're like, okay, so if this was, if this was just a true crime documentary, well, we didn't want to, we didn't want to, like, go and listen to a bunch of, like, Netflix documentaries. We were like, how would we do this?
Jonathan Correia:Yeah, the film is really good about sitting in moments and, like, holding on things and for for everyone in the room here, when is it like? Is it like, guttural? How do you know when to like, Hold on things? Because with the score, there's moments where nothing is happening with sound, and that's uncomfortable, especially in I'm thinking, like the cabin scene, there's a lot of open space happening, and there's a lot of moments where music is not happening, the angle is off. So you're constantly looking at that, that corner right over there, going, something's about to happen in that fucking corner. I know
Brett W. Bachman:it. That's by design. That's supposed to be happening. I
Jonathan Correia:don't like it, guys. I don't like it. I don't like it. When you do that to me, no, I do. I love it, but in the moment, it's like, I don't like this. I don't like what you're doing. Release this tension, please.
Brett W. Bachman:I mean, that's all anticipation. Yeah, it's, it's a fun sandbox to be working in, but it's evaluating, what is the narrative require? What does the story require? What is the, what is the beat we want the audience to be experiencing right here? And if it's a if it's building towards a scare. 90% of your scare is anticipation. It's the ambiguity of that threat. Where is it coming from? When is it coming from? And, I mean, there were several, I mean, there's several great opportunities in this film to really draw that tension out. I mean, I'm thinking of you really hit the nail on the head with that cabin scene, with the attack at the end of Act One, and then seeing, without giving too much away, the what happened to Riley, you know, about a third of the way into the movie, but also the very beginning of the movie as well, with establishing the disappearance right off the bat. I remember seeing the cut that had gone to Fantasia, and one of my first impressions of the film was Riley talking to the camera the subtext or the subtitle saying, this is the last time that she was seen alive and she disappears. But you don't really get a sense of what occurred in this attack, what took place? You just know, she kind of disappeared into the air. One of the first things I did was to like, look at this material and be like, oh, there's. Look at what had been shot, you know, years ago with Sarah, who played Riley. And think there's a great opportunity here to really open this up, really make this breathe, really linger in this tension. And really, I think we Patrick, this was, I think I basically reverted to a cut that you had had months ago. That was really just let that opportunity, let that moment breathe, really, let you hang in the air with her staring at this door. You've heard the all these attacks in the other room. You know, it's a threat outside, but we're going to make you sit in it. We're not going to fly through this and get the story going immediately. We're going to establish there's danger. Let the audience sit in this for 30 seconds. And she walks out the room and you hear, you hear something outside. You don't know what. It is, you don't know exactly what is occurring. If she's encountered something, if she's been abducted, if she's fallen, if she's run outside, there's this ambiguous sound of something. And then the movie begins. I mean, I basically just been Patrick, this was something I think you guys had tried before, right before Fantasia, yeah. And I think there was, like, notes coming in that were like, Okay, we need to accelerate this story. Let's get the movie going. And I was like, no, no, no, no. This is a case where you plant a flag, you sit, tell your audience, this is what you're expecting for the next 90 minutes, 80 minutes, and also it's one of the more effective moments of dread and tension in the entire film. I think,
Patrick Lawrence:yeah, what I love about what Brett did was he went back in and he found things that I was really precious about. There were things that I did not want to cut. And, you know, over the course of a movie, when you're in it for, you know, a year and a half, like I was, there's a lot of thoughts and notes, especially different filmmakers and different personalities and people they it really the film morphs along the way. And there were things that we had done very early on that instinctually, I really wanted to see, you know, come to fruition. And one of those was in the opening sequence, just sitting in that tape for the entire length of the tape. And I wanted the audience to just get increasingly more uncomfortable with being in that room with Riley up until the point she gets taken and yeah, the scene had gotten cut and down, cut down, cut down. And I didn't think it had the same effect, you know, when I was done with it. And so Brett brilliantly brought that back in. And I love that. And a few other scenes too, the cabin scene, the scene on the porch, was another one that, like I loved and got thrown away, and he had the instincts to bring it back in and let that tension draw out, because that's what I'm not. I don't think I'm, like, the greatest with jump scares, but like, I feel like I can do tension pretty good, and I love making the audience uncomfortable. You see that a lot, and scare me as well. Like, like, we would sit in a shot forever just trying to make the audience think, like is something about to happen. But it doesn't, yeah, sort of throw them off
James Burkholder:guilt. I will say that the porch scene. So I've seen it twice. I saw it at Fantastic Fest, and then I saw it at beyond fest. In the last couple months, that porch scare, I jumping 10 feet out my seat every fucking time, and I know it's coming, and I scored the jump scare.
Patrick Lawrence:I've seen this movie a million times, and I'm sitting in the theater next to James, and both of us jumped because it's almost
Brett W. Bachman:got a jump scare. What makes it work is you're anticipating a jump. I mean, one of my favorite things about this movie is that we're playing with jumps twofold. I mean, we certainly have moments where you're paying off with a sting, you know, whether it be the porch attack, but you know, one of my favorite moments in the film that was a product of a pickup shoot. Sorry, something was this flashback memory that Mia is telling a story of the first time that she saw something outside her window. We're purposefully really manipulating with time and the reveal of a character or an object outside that window and subverting the audience's expectations to see something, and how you go about that. And one of my my favorite things about working with Chris is that he's quite familiar with the archetypes and the devices, I mean, as being as a giant film fan, and he's likes to play with audiences expectations in that way, he knows what to they're anticipating, and can either know how to delay that, know how to manipulate that expectation, to provoke producing something new. And that was a great opportunity with him. Oh, I
Jonathan Correia:mean, again, that porch scene that that changes the tone of the of everything, and the fact that you guys made us sit in it for that long. Was brutal, brutal. And I say all these things like negative, but I know our listeners can't see I have the biggest dumb smile on my face when I say stuff like that. When I'm like, fuck you for making me sit in that. No, it's really because in you want. I You want those type of reactions from people you want. I mean, not saying anyone's asleep, but that wakes you the fuck up and makes you go, Oh, shit. What can happen next? Because I don't know, like, everything just changed from what's happening.
Jacob Davidson:Like, the bit that got me on edge was the prison scene, you know, just is just the environment and the pacing just really had me on edge because I knew. Something bad was gonna
Jonathan Correia:happen. Oh, man, I've done, I've shot, I found footage, film in an abandoned prison before. So the second I see that happening, I'm just like, I know what that smells like. Immediately was there. And sometimes I'm just like, oh, I don't know about this, but like, I was on I was on edge. Let by that point you guys got me good, excellent looking in the darkness and stuff. And I'm like,
Brett W. Bachman:I love that we were able to get that entire scene silent. Yeah, I don't think until, it's not until there's very much music at 100 but I mean, there's that entire investigation of her going around the cell, seeing the Ferris wheel, footprints on the ground, the flashlight panning like the only thing you're hearing is Camille, our actor, playing Mia, just breathing, intensely frightened, and you have no idea what's about to occur, yeah? And then, you know, then the next sound is MIA not breathing. It's something else breathing.
Jonathan Correia:Yeah, and the film famously got the reshoots to happen with the neon deal, which is awesome. I haven't seen the previous Fantasia cuts or anything like that, so I don't know what was changed differently, but what were some of the challenges on making that work? Because, I mean, there had been a few years since you shot, since it was initially shot the film, and then you have these new endings. And even just like piecing together or making it flow, making it look consistent without there suddenly be a mega change, the challenge. Oh,
Brett W. Bachman:I mean, I will say they were not mega changes. These reshoots were very light. There they were not, we were not redoing entire sequences. We were, this was a very like a light two, three day pickup. Then this, then they were motivated. I think the biggest reshoot we did was to consolidate two existing scenes for momentum reasons and pace reasons. In the movie, we have the advantage of coming back from Fantasia, of coming back from a film having premiered, and Chris got a lot of feedback from not that, just that opportunity, the show in front of a public audience, but we tested, they test neon, tested the film with a recruited audience. They got some data back in. And one of the recurring things that have popped up on some of these questionnaires was, like, there was a some questions about pace in the middle of the movie, about, you know, the way that the structure of the character going here, discovering that going there. And Chris was thinking, Is there a way I can consolidate some of these scenes? And so we reshot. We took two scenes from the Fantasia cut, and we reshot we reshot them to consolidate these two scenes into one brand new scene. So the scene where like, Mia is like, laying down all the paperwork on the table, all the photos of her detective work that used to be two separate scenes, it took twice the screen time to do. And so Chris was like, I think we can really keep the momentum in the movie going, if I just get the actors back and consolidate this. And it worked. It works quite well, keeps the momentum going, keeps the pace going. And that was probably the bulk of the pickups. Was just that we ended up redoing some of that prison scene that we just discussed. I think largely because they when Patrick, when we shot this first, the first time it was actually at the prison, and that set was quite restrictive. Chris did not do a lot of the camera work that he wanted to in the in the actual location. He couldn't get some of the angles he wanted. He couldn't get some things on the walls there. Couldn't there was a thing about art. They couldn't have some of the props and some of the set design that he wanted. And so we shot that on a stage just for, I think, the intent of, like building up that moment to making that as scary as it could. And then we reshot a few elements for to amp up the visceral violence at times. I think a lot of, I mean, Patrick, you can talk about this going through the iterations of the film. But one of the first things neon did after the acquisition was like, look at the shooting script that was part of the delivery requirements. And they realized this bit in the script is not in the film. Why did you cut that out? And Chris would say, we never shot that. We did not have the logistics not make that possible for us to pick that up. And neon came back, and they're like, Would you like to shoot? Would you like to have this into the movie? We would like this, please. Yeah. And so when you Case in point, when you there, Mia is watching the tape, and you see the attack of what happened to the paranoids, some of that, those intense moments of violence, those are pickups you know, having a great, great visual effects crew, great practical effects crew, to, you know, show some of this harrowing, intense action that's a pickup and and some creature work. I'm just too we had a our, there's a, without spoiling too much, there is so. Something in the film that appears in corners, hidden in places and in shadows at times. And Chris had some ideas to update the look of this creature, of this monster. And so we had some wonderful prosthetics and some special effects with our our unsaid creature, and got some of him on green screen, and worked him, worked his way into the movie. But that was really it. I mean, in terms of, you know, reshoots, it was really not that much,
Patrick Lawrence:yeah, you know, to set the record straight, even though you're$1.4 million Kickstarter fundraise film, it after fees. It's still a low budget movie, right? And so there were a lot of restrictions that we had working on the initial film, which became the Fantasia cut of the film. And there were things that were in the script, like Brett mentioned, that didn't get shot or, you know, just every film goes to this where it's like, okay, well, we can't get that, so we got to move on. So a lot of the things that we were working with, we were stuck with, because you you're really limited by the footage you have and the story that we were telling. And some of these notes that neon had had come up and the story points and things, but we were kind of handcuffed, because there was no real way to cut around those things without finding a way to condense them. So that was a big part of it. And then, you know, the the minimal reshoots that happened or enhancements to things that were previously shot. But like, you know, when you have the ability to go and make it, you know, 100 times better, why not? So that was, that was a big part of it. But, yeah, no, I, I've seen comments and things online where it's like Mike Flanagan went and redirected the movie and blah, blah. But no, to set the record straight, like Brett said, it was very minimal and it enhances the story.
Brett W. Bachman:And no, I don't think Mike has seen a cut after fantasy. Like I was talking with him, because we're getting ready to go and Carrie and I would mention, like, Oh, I'm starting, I'm going to do a pass on Shelby. And I was like, I'm tossing out to, you know, Paper Street and folks for notes. I mean, would you like to be a part of that? And he's like, nope, nope. This is, this is Chris's movie. I'm here to support, but I want to see the movie at the premiere in October. Like, I'm not going to be involved in any of the reshoots. I'm not going to be involved in any of the notes. I'm here to support Chris. He did a great job. So, so So Mike is certainly involved from like, the advisory capacity or earlier on, but ever since Fantasia, he has not been involved.
Jonathan Correia:That's awesome to hear. I love hearing when there's like, names and things thrown around and it's just like, No, no. They're very supportive. They're very, you know, everyone's everyone just sounds so cool and Buddy Buddy, like, that's awesome,
Brett W. Bachman:yeah, yeah, definitely not a rogue one situation.
Jonathan Correia:Oh, we don't want to get in trouble there.
Brett W. Bachman:He was extremely supportive and very hands off, and really, sincerely wants the best for Chris, and just wants to support him, make sure that this is the first of many films for him. Yeah,
Jonathan Correia:no idea, and we're excited to see any and all these future films. It's, and it's, it's, again, it's an amazing road that this film has gone through. It's years in the making, from the crowd funding all to the acquisition to today it being released. So congratulations once again, guys. But before we head out. I just want to check in with you guys. Brett, I know you have a couple more projects coming out, but James and Patrick, what? What's coming up for you guys soon?
James Burkholder:Patrick, go ahead.
Patrick Lawrence:I just had a movie premiere at screen fest called cognitive that I'm really excited about it. Does not have a home yet, but it's like a sci fi horror, you know, with AI. And I compare it to like Alien in a office space, but the alien is an is a omnipresent AI that is infecting all of the technology in the building, and it's a mix with bodies, bodies, bodies, because it's a comedy so very fun. Comedic kills lots of action, and directed by this guy, Tommy savis, who I adore, and I had just the best time working with him. So I'm really excited for that to come out.
James Burkholder:Yeah, I just started working on a kind of a Creature Feature movie that I can't talk too much about, but should be coming out next year. All
Jacob Davidson:right, can't have too many creature
Jonathan Correia:features. Yeah, exactly that is, that is a fact like, if there's, if there's too many creature features. Is coming out, then that's a problem. I want. Yeah, exactly.
Jacob Davidson:Give me all the creature features. Yeah.
Jonathan Correia:And then Brett, what are? What are the films that are coming out soon for you as well? Yeah.
Brett W. Bachman:Okay, so I have a film called lone samurai coming out with an old buddy. Josh C Waller, the first director I ever worked with. I've done three features with. It's our Fourth time working together. It's a samurai film coming out in December, about a guy marooned on into a tropical island, and he discovers he's not marooned. He's not alone. There are cannibals on the
Jonathan Correia:island. Samurai versus cannibals. It's a
Brett W. Bachman:little meditative. It's a little Terrence Malick, and then it does not become, I have a samurai sword and I am fighting in a little army of flesh eaters. So that we had a premier beyond fest a few weeks ago, making the rounds for that right. Nice to be coming out. And then, yeah, at some point next year, Carrie, whenever, whenever we finish it. But we were wrapping production today, and it's been going really
Jonathan Correia:well. Oh yeah, awesome. All right, looking forward to all that. Yeah, thank you absolutely. Well. Thank you guys again, so much for joining us today. Sitting down, Brett's Always a pleasure. Patrick, James, you're always welcome back and say, We love having people come back and see where things are going. And I think last time when we talked was very like his Toxic Avenger, finally coming out. So congratulations on that finally coming out. Congratulations. I'm waiting for my steel book.
Jacob Davidson:Get that 4k
Jonathan Correia:it's it's pre ordered. And again, congratulations everyone on Shelby Oaks, awesome job, and I can't wait to see more reactions out of people. Thank you, Jonathan, thanks. So our Yeah, our theme song is by Restless Spirit, and our artwork is by Chris Fisher. You can find Jacob myself and everyone else. ihorror.com the place we call home, James, where can we find you online to keep up with what you're working on. I'm
James Burkholder:on Instagram. It's @James.wolf.Burkholder. Is my
Jonathan Correia:app awesome. And what about you? Patrick, where can we find you
Patrick Lawrence:on all the socials @PtrckLwrnce, with all the vowels removed except for the E at the it just sort of looks better that way, I don't know. And also check out my band of cults at a colts official.
Jonathan Correia:Hell yeah. And Brett, where can we find you online?
Brett W. Bachman:I reluctantly have an Instagram@BrettWBachman, Instagram, I'm there. I post stuff.
Jonathan Correia:Yeah, no. I mean, I always tell people my follow @eyeonhorror. If you follow my personal thing, it's just pictures of my cat and Star Trek.
Jacob Davidson:Me mostly post picture Mark Marquise, yep.
Jonathan Correia:So Well, thank you guys again, and yeah, until we meet again, keep your eye on horror. I'm JonathanCorreia,
Jacob Davidson:I'm Jacob Davison,
James Jay Edwards:I'm James Jay Edwards,
James Burkholder:I'm James Burkholder. I
Brett W. Bachman:am Brett W Bachman,
Patrick Lawrence:and I'm Patrick Lawrence. Keep
Jonathan Correia:your eye on horror.
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