Eye On Horror
Eye On Horror
Let's Get Meta!
This week, The Boys rave over Asteroid City, Jacob goes to a Halloween Horror Marathon at the New Bev, Jay reviews The Flash and Indiana Jones Dial of Destiny, and Correia's Book Nook returns for Batman The Doom That Came to Gotham and Hellboy. Inspired by the hilarious new film, The Blackening, The boy discuss the use of Meta in horror films. Our favorite examples, when it doesn't work and why, and more. Its all new on EYE ON HORROR!
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Welcome to Eye On Horror, the official podcast of iHorror.com. This is Episode 108, otherwise known as season six, episode nine. I'm your host James Jay Edwards and with me as always is your other host, Jacob Davison, how you doing Jacob?
Jacob Davidson:Doing fine. Good to be back.
James Jay Edwards:Cool. And also with us yet again, as always is your other other host Jon Correia How you doing Correia?
Jonathan Correia:I'm doing great. A little distracted because I found my hot dog fingers that I bought for Everything Everywhere All At Once. And if they're still in the box, but they're just like in the corner here and in right when you just said How you doing? That's That's what I was staring at was just hot dog fingers. So
Jacob Davidson:someday you will make good use of them. Yeah.
James Jay Edwards:I was thrown off a bit because usually we get a little, a little bit of a blurb from Jacob but he's all. I'm doing great looking forward to this.
Jacob Davidson:I mean, I'm saving. I'm saving it for the main conversation.
Jonathan Correia:He's building anticipation,
James Jay Edwards:right he's ready to dive in is what it is. He's like, none of this chitchat. Let's get right to this episode.
Jonathan Correia:Jacobs got shit on the griddle and he's ready to throw it down says
James Jay Edwards:Okay, then let's throw it down. Now what's been going on this week?
Jacob Davidson:Okay. Over the weekend I went to the new Beverly Halloween Horrors Marathon decided to do kind of a summerween thing. For the Gravity falls, the Gravity Falls' fans out there. So yeah, they did four Halloween horror movies. We didn't know what to expect. It was all a mystery until we saw them on 35 millimeter. Do you guys want to hancer a Guess what what they were?
Jonathan Correia:I mean, I saw your tweet. So I know what they were
James Jay Edwards:Your parents cheated. All right.
Jacob Davidson:Well, yeah, so it was Night of the Demons, Idle Hands, Hack-O-Lantern, and Trick R' Treat, not an not Trick or Treat, which I still need to see. But still Trick R' Treat is always a blast to see on a big screen with a crowd
James Jay Edwards:as a little heavy metal child of the 80s Trick or Treat is awesome. So you definitely do need to see that. I was kind of hoping that they would show Satan's Little Helper in there.
Jonathan Correia:Just youts
Jacob Davidson:think they're supposed to be high schoolers, Yeah, I was kind of hoping that I it's been a long time since I've watched it. I've never seen it theatrically. But ya know that it was great selection and I was glad they but they're all way older. Oh Yeah, Yeah, and, and also, Linnea Quigley standing out as showed Night of the Demons because I feel like that's a very underrated halloween horror movie. Basically, Evil Dead but Halloween, and with a bunch of stupid. I think I can't I can't tell if this was be like high schoolers or college kids I don't know, Youts? General Youths? always, like just she, she has some good bits like there's that whole run Judy run. See Judy run
James Jay Edwards:That's the movie with the with the Legendary Lipstick scene. Ah, yeah. Cool as fuck.
Jacob Davidson:Oh, that lipstick scene Yeah, that was that that got a reaction out of the crowd. And Hack-O-Lantern is just kind of a fun horror, halloween horror movie. And also Yeah. And also he played the hitman in Phantom of the Mall: technically heavy metal Halloween Horror movie because they I feel like they had to pad a lot of it because there's that whole scene where like the dude has the dream sequence where he's in the the music video for the devil's Sarn are there with like the demoness and it still blows my mind because I have to be reminded every time that the guy who plays the lead killer Eric's Revenge. That's right. He did. Yeah, I remember seeing that going. I Hack-O-Lantern is the same guy that plays Mac's dad on It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia. recognize those eyes. Piercing eyes. Yeah, that's Gregory Scott Cummins
Jonathan Correia:Man. I'm just upset that I missed Idle Hands on 35 with a crowd
Jacob Davidson:Oh, yeah, I got to talk about Idle Hands.
Jonathan Correia:Oh, God, I fucking love that movie.
Jacob Davidson:Yeah, no, it is peak, late 90s Horror comedy and Devon Sawa puts a Bruce Campbell esque performance that you know having his demonic hand going around killing people so good. It's just a fun it's just a fun movie.
Jonathan Correia:It's so good.
James Jay Edwards:This past week has been super busy for me but not a whole lot on the horror front. There's been some horror adjacent stuff like I saw The Flash you guys get to The Flash. Thing is The Flash. I enjoyed it. I think I would have enjoyed it more if it wasn't pretty much what Marvel was doing right now with both the Spider-verse and the multiverse, you know, because it's not really a multiverse. It's more of like a timeline thing, where like, um, and I think this is all trailer stuff. So I'm not, you know, spoiling anything, but The Flash goes back in time. And he fucks with the time. So there are two timelines. And it turns out and Michael Keaton's Batman does a great job of explaining this using spaghetti of all things about how like, the different timeline, you know about how time works. And when you change something, you know, you can alter both the past and the present. But he basically he goes back in time, and he encounters himself as a teenager, and that fucks a whole bunch of stuff up. I wish that they had kept it a secret that Michael Keaton, as Batman was in it, but they've been using that as a selling point. And the reason I understand the reason they're doing that is because at this point, Michael Keaton is a more marketable star. And then Ezra Miller, I mean, let's face it, they're selling a movie. But the good news is, there's way more cool surprises than Michael Keaton as Batman in this movie, the different timelines open up way more than just Michael Keaton is Batman, but that would have been a fun reveal. If you didn't know it was coming. But again, they're selling a movie. So they had to, they had to get people in.
Jonathan Correia:I do love the marketing strategy of refocusing away from Ezra who's you know, a rough sell right now. Put it lightly, and refocusing on everyone else. So it's like Keaton, Super Girl, having the director more out there. And then when people interview Michael Shannon, because he's back as General Zod, he's just like, yeah, I felt nothing coming back as General Zod. Like you guys realize he broke my neck in the in the in the last movie I was doing right. It's just one of those. So of course, everyone's just taking his like, thing out of context of like, I felt nothing coming back. And it's like, well, no, the context is he spent like six or nine months for Man of Steel training, prepping all that stuff in with Flash. He was only there for a few weeks. But it's just funny that people are just leaning hard on the look at Michael Shannon and being all cantankerous and it's like, yeah, that's why we love Michael Shannon, did you not see his Criterion's closet episode? It's fucking amazing.
Jacob Davidson:He was wearing a Hawaiian shirt. It was amazing.
Jonathan Correia:Oh, and it ends with him being like, Oh, what a great day. Oh, I'm a lucky boy. And like the most monotone voice ever. It's amazing.
Jacob Davidson:And does it set up like the new DC that they're going to do like what James Gunn taking over and all that.
James Jay Edwards:I'm not too familiar with what James Gunn is setting up. So it may be setting it up. I know that it it's it is definitely heading in a different direction than previous DC movies. But I haven't really been a fan of most of the previous these especially the Superman Batman ones. I mean, I liked Aquaman and I liked the first Wonder Woman. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know what he's been planning to set up. So I can't say how well it set that up.
Jonathan Correia:Well, speaking of comics, I have another edition of Korea's book nook, or book corner, whatever we're calling it I don't know. DC actually recently came out with a new animated film called Batman The Doom That Came to Gotham, which if you don't know, it was an Elseworlds title, meaning it's a contained story that is non canon takes place other universe. But it was basically Mike Mignola, who created Hellboy and many other amazing series, taking the Batman lore and filtering it through HP Lovecraft. And it's so good the the mov- the animated movie adapts the book almost exactly minus like a few details, because it does take place in like early 1900s. And they add in a few things to kind of update it and modernize it like they added Lucius Fox and have a moment of like addressing some Lovecraftian race issues with that. And a few other things but the whole premise is basically tying like Bruce, the Wayne family to like Cthulhu and the elder gods and like how they were all tied to the to that the animated movie is pretty good. But I can't recommend the graphic novel enough. Mike Mignola's artwork is amazing. And it just the opening just reads like In the Mouth of Madness, but instead it's The Penguin going basically nuts in the artic, which is awesome. They bathe they do stuff like they turn Killer Croc into a Dagon basically and they have like Mr. Freeze be like a re-reanimated frozen corpse. It goes there. It's very dark. It's very colorful and just all around awesome. And then, because of that, I also got inspired to deep dive into Hellboy a lot. And if you haven't read any Hellboy, I can't recommend enough going by the omnibuses, where it's the collections because when they collected them, they collected them chronologically. So if you read like from the first one, it starts with Seed of Destruction, and moves forward. But also the shorts collect-short stories collections are really good. The first omnibus collects most of the Hellboy in Mexico story, which is awesome, because it's like a young Hellboy, and he's in Mexico. And he's investigating a plague of monsters. There's witches vampires, all this stuff and he ends up teaming up with a these three Lucha wrestler brothers who gave up wrestling to fight monsters because they were called to it by God and disaster happens. And there's a moment where it Hellboy goes Yeah. You know, after the the incident with the brothers, you know, I was in Mexico, they found me five months later, outside of a bar piss drunk in Mexico. They're like, Well, what happened during those five months, he's like, I don't know. I was blackout drunk. And I don't know if I want to remember. And then the next few stories are what happened during that. So it's just Hellboy just sloshed. Just messing up. And what's great about the Hellboy comics is how often these, these incidents are resolved not because Hellboy outsmarted them. But just because something happened, like there's a great issue where like Rasputin comes back. And he's about to like take over the world. And then, like a Nazi head in a jar, just kind of fucks up the plan and blows up the entire base. And I was just like, Huh, I guess that's over with. And Rasputin gets called out like, Oh, you got defeated by a head in a jar. But the comics are weird. The artwork is amazing. And yeah. Also, if you get the omnibus of short stories, the first volume of it, it does include The Crooked Man, which is what the next Hellboy movie is going to be based on. And yeah, that is a dark and twisted appellation folk horror story that just go so. So weird. I love it so much. So I can't recommend the Hell, if you haven't deep dived into the Hellboy comics yet, I highly recommend it. Most of them are available on the Libby app, so you can borrow them for free using your local library card.
James Jay Edwards:Nice. Another thing that I saw that I don't want to spend too much time on it because it's not really horror, but I think it's worth mentioning because people will be interested. I saw the new Indiana Jones movie. Oh, Indiana Jones and the Dial of Destiny is what it's called. And it's an Indiana Jones movie is the best way to describe it. Yeah, it's Indiana Jones. He gets dragged back into things. And he's looking for basically Archimedes' dial. There's two halves to it and his old buddy Baz had one and Phoebe Waller Bridge plays Bas' daughter, and she's looking for the other half for for her doctoral thesis. So but of course, there's a Nazi because there's always Nazis who's played by Mads Mikkelsen.
Jonathan Correia:My boy Mads.
James Jay Edwards:Yeah, he Oh, he's an amazing Nazi. Of course.
Jonathan Correia:Well, Mads is, Mads is amazing no matter what, but like, yeah, they were like, oh, yeah, there's a big bed, Nazi. It's played by Mads Mikkelsen. It's like, oh, you know, he's gonna hit all those notes just right.
James Jay Edwards:He does. He does. And, and he wants to Archimedes because the Archimedes dial basically, can, can turn back time is what it is you can time travel. So he wants it for it set in. I think it's set in the 60s or 70s. I feel like Vietnam is coming to a close, so maybe it's early 70s. But India is like, he's retiring as a professor. So however, you know, however old so they don't. They don't they de-age him for the opening scene because the opening scene takes place, you know, in the 40s, you know, end of World War Two, but then he's not de-aged. So people who are wondering about the the aging of Harrison Ford, it's only before the opening credits. But it's fun. I mean, it's long. It's two and a half hours, and it feels long. So I'm not saying it's boring, but it's not a quick watch. There's a lot that happens and it it's pretty exciting. Actually, there's a lot of good stunt work in it. There's a lot of good chases, and it's you know, it's an Indiana Jones movie.
Jonathan Correia:I'm just excited for the banter between Indi and Phoebe Waller Bridges because she's, she's incredible. And she's so smart and quick witted, like,
James Jay Edwards:there's a dynamic between those two because they they both want the same thing, but for different reasons. Same thing as the Nazi everybody wants the the dial, but everybody wants it for different reasons. So they're kind of on the same team, but then they butt heads on things. So it's I think you'll be happy with the with the dynamic between them because like you said She's incredible. And Harrison Ford is incredible. So yeah hits the.
Jonathan Correia:She's She's so good and like if she got a crack at like writing some of that dialogue, you know, it's good. Like, you could tell when her voice was like very prominent in No Time to Die the last James Bond movie because there were some scenes where I was like, oh, Phoebe Waller bridges wrote this, like her language is all over this scene, which is awesome. But yeah, I'm always stoked for Indiana Jones even like,
Jacob Davidson:Kingdom of the Crystal Skull?
Jonathan Correia:Yeah, even that one you know, like, it's not as bad as we as we all made it.
James Jay Edwards:I haven't seen it in such a long time. I think I might need to revisit it. But from what I remember this one is definitely better than Kingdom of the Crystal Skull. It I don't think it's as good as the original three though. So if we're ranking them, it would be number four. Out of the five that says more about the original three though than it does this movie. You know, I think
Jonathan Correia:I don't think you could ever top Last Crusade. Like Last Crusade is just the best. Out there, though. Don't get me wrong. Raiders of Lost Ark very close second when it comes to my rankings. But Last Crusade, just Sean Connery and Harrison Ford had such great chemistry. They were so good together.
James Jay Edwards:And another kind of fringe thing I saw which I know both you did, too. So let's talk about Asteroid City. Yeah. Asteroids. See, it's the new Wes Anderson movie. And it's not even close to horror. But it is kind of a little throwback to, to like 50 sci fi and there's an alien in it. Oh,
Jacob Davidson:incredible. The sequences outstanding. Yeah. And also the way they bring the alien
James Jay Edwards:It's amazing. Because one of the the main actually the closest to a main character it has because it's mainly an ensemble. But the closest thing my main character has Jason Schwartzman. He's a he's a photographer. And when into the picture, like, again, don't want to spoil it, but they the alien comes out there, he's taken a picture of it. And it poses for it, which is hilarious. And the alien. I don't want to spoil anything, but it has an amazing payoff. It has an amazing payoff. do it with kind of a special effect way that it does stand out and look alien from the rest of the cast. Yeah, because the whole thing seems like it takes place back in like the 50s. Yeah,
Jacob Davidson:it is it they say it's like 1955.
James Jay Edwards:And the whole thing, it's kind of set around a it's a play that you're watching because every once awhile Bryan Bryan Cranston will pop in as a narrator. And then he'll introduce Edward Norton, who's the writer of the play. And whenever it goes to black and white, you know that you're watching the behind the scenes of the play. And that's kind of why the the entire aesthetic of it. I mean, it's got that Wes Anderson color palette, but it also has kind of a two dimensional, the sets kind of have a two dimensional feel to them, because it's supposed to be, you're supposed to be watching a play unfold. So the backgrounds aren't like super deep and rich, you know, it's
Jacob Davidson:just like limited locations. And they sometimes do kind of flat backdrops. So it looks like Yeah, it's like the back of the stage. And like, there's effects like whenever an atom bomb goes off, it looks like it's kind of painted on the screen. Yes. So
Jonathan Correia:I I'm, I'm a little confused. Because I'll be honest, I haven't really watched a Wes Anderson movie since I think Moonrise Kingdom and I certainly haven't seen one in theaters since. Fantastic Mr. Fox, but I left it. I loved it. I had so much fun with Asteroid City I thought it was absolutely hilarious. I love the the framing with it being a play and like bounce back and forth. So it was like, not only do you have the story of Asteroid City going on, but there was like the conversations of the creative process and like, what you're finding the character finding the story, the writers, you know, working things out, there's a lot of layers to it. But I'm seeing a lot of people like shitting on it or saying like oh, the Wes Anderson things over and then I even saw like a really fucking bad take where someone was like, oh, Wes Anderson. Imagine being Wes Anderson and spending decades developing your aesthetic and then just seeing a bunch of people on tick tock, copy it making you obsolete. It's like, that's not making you obsolete. That's you created this thing. That's like saying, Oh, I bet John Carpenter felt like shit after all the slasher movies came out that were also really good after Halloween. It's like No dude, that's that's just how it is like there's always gonna be mimics there's always gonna be ways to copy people how many you know people try it's it's it's just ridiculous to think that one person's art invalidate somebody else is just because they can emulate their aesthetic, you know,
James Jay Edwards:kind of hit or miss with Wes Anderson myself. I do find his later work is stronger. My visit, Asteroid City is my second favorite Wes Anderson movie, I think behind Isle of Dogs. But I do think that it's, it's sometimes it flip flops with Moonrise Kingdom, because that's another one of my favorites. But, um, but I'm not a big fan of like his earlier stuff. But I don't understand people saying, Oh, it's over. Now. He's just getting better, I think.
Jacob Davidson:Yeah. And I was gonna say one of the best takess I've seen was from a friend who saw Asteroid City and said, the movie proved that AI cannot replicate art because only somebody like it Wes Anderson could make Asteroid City as a Wes Anderson movie, you know, just because it, it is his own style, but at the same time, it's like, you know, the these imitators and this stuff with like, AI, it's like, it's very How do I put this? False? It's like, you know, it's it's got like, the false aesthetic, but it doesn't capture the heart. And, ya know, just like, Asteroid City does have his style, but at the same time, there's also has his very particular sense of writing and the themes, so yeah, no, just I think it really stands out.
Jonathan Correia:It's like anything with AI. You know, it's taking reference. Yeah, I've uh, goddamnit, have I've been mentioning Star Trek a lot lately, because I've been watching a lot of Star Trek so my apologies if I keep mentioning Star Trek on the on this podcast, which Oh, my God Strange New Worlds? AH! Carol Kane's in it now. So good anyways. But no, in in Star Trek The Next Generation, there's a lot of stuff with data and how data has all this information in his brain. And when he tries to do creative stuff, he can only reference or emulate other people doing things. So when he's playing violin, yes, it's very good. Because he's playing like a certain player can, can like he could emulate Yo Yo Ma, or someone, but he can't get the heart of what's going on. And that's, and I think that's just like a perfect example, when it comes to AI writing or AI art all of this is it's always going to be an amalgamation. That's a word I'm going to I'm going to not say right now, an amalgamation of other people's work. But I think it was also one of the WGA picket signs said, AI doesn't have childhood trauma, you know, it doesn't know from its own personal experience, it doesn't know from its own personal events and things to pull from to self reference to make it unique. And I think that's, that's why even though you have all this emulation, which I'm sure it's not taking away from the original, the person that inspired it, thing, you know, it's, it's, it's either, you know, something that's done out of admiration or, you know, fun or you're just trying to knock knock, knock it off, you know, I mean, Friday 13th doesn't take away from Halloween, you know, and Halloween doesn't take away from the proto Slashers before it, you know, it's building upon it for as long as you're bringing something new. While take well, emulating. You know,
James Jay Edwards:that's one of the things that bothers me about people when remakes come out. People say like, oh, you know, like when the Child's Play remake make came out a few years ago, people Oh, this is ruining my childhood. How this movie is not making the one from your childhood cease to exist. You know, it's it's an additional movie, if you're that pissed off, don't see it, but it's how was it ruining your childhood? I mean,
Jacob Davidson:anyway, anyways, we could go on
James Jay Edwards:the only horror thing I that, that I know that I have seen this week, really? New Release is one that we've saved for the end because it's going to kind of mesh into our topic, but The Blackening, yeah. You guys see The Blackening. You see it Correia? Yeah. Oh, I haven't seen it yet. We'll try not to spoil it then.
Jonathan Correia:But that first trailer came out. I was like, I need to see this movie. And I was not disappointed. Well, it's Tim Story who did the original Barbershop and he also did the two Fantastic Four movies, which we don't talk about. But yeah, The Blackening is great. It's, it's about a group of friends who gather in a cabin in our cabin esque house in the woods for a Juneteenth party. And
James Jay Edwards:a group of black friends that gather.
Jonathan Correia:Yeah, for Juneteenth. Yeah, and they find this. What did they keep calling it Jim Crow monopoly? Yeah,
James Jay Edwards:it's this weird board game in the basement that's called The Blackening, but it kind of, they call it like a Jim Crow monopoly, because in the middle of the board, there's this talking Sambo head with a timer around it. And it's pretty freakin racist the Sambo head, but then they pick the game is like you pick a card, and it and and it'll ask like, like name one horror movie where the black character survives or something like that. And then you have you have time to answer it. And the whole crux of the movie is that there's someone watching them, who is forcing them to play this game. And if they get any wrong answers, you know, bad things happen.
Jonathan Correia:Yeah, and because a lot of the questions are based around like, it becomes a question of like, how black are you? You know, and it's, it's pulling in, it's playing with the idea and trope and culture of revoking one's black card, you know, oh, no, you put you put grapes in the potato salad. They,
James Jay Edwards:at one point, when describing the game, one of the characters says, I'm not going to take a Black History test, you know, because that's what it is. It's not just the first question. It happens to be, you know, the black characters surviving a horror movie. But the other ones, you know, they're they have to do with like, black culture, like, one of the funniest questions is, was it named the six black actors who have been on friends?
Jonathan Correia:Yeah. And oh dude It's such a great bit, because all of them are immediately say, Well, I don't watch Friends. But there was that one episode where
James Jay Edwards:Alesha was on one episode, you know? Yeah, I don't I don't watch Friends. But it was
Jonathan Correia:that one episode, and they ended up naming all of them and then the board goes: wrong. The correct answer is I don't know. I watch Living Single, which is my response to anytime someone brings up Friends.
James Jay Edwards:My issue with that sequence is because the correct answer is I don't know. I don't watch Friends. Every one of them said that so they got it right.
Jonathan Correia:Oh, no, the correct answer is I don't know. I don't watch that. I watched Living Single. They
James Jay Edwards:didn't say left. Living Single part. Yeah.
Jonathan Correia:My favorite was the quiz. The board goes. Everyone knows the black national anthem is Raise Your Voices up and everyone knows the first verse, but what's the second first? Yeah, it might be first of all, this is a movie you see with a crowd and you got to see what the crowd that's into it, which our crowd was
James Jay Edwards:you know, that's the kind of audience you should see this movie with.
Jonathan Correia:I mean, just for my audience, just for that one bit of the sing the second verse, you could hear everyone just suddenly go Oh, and like, you could hear the gears turning in everyone's head. Go fuck. What is the second verse of raise your voices up? Ah, man, but yeah, The Blackening was is really good. It's it's not a parody. I know, a lot of the marketing makes it look like it's gonna be a parody. There was one character that was very cartoonish. And that's Cliffton the nerdy type character, which was felt he was the only character that was like, I don't. This one just it feels he feels too cartoonish for it. But it's a lot of fun. It plays with a lot of the tropes,
James Jay Edwards:but it also subverts them. Yeah, which is part of what I thought was fun about it is like, yeah, it embraces the black people in horror tropes, but it also subverts them. And also, I were talking about this earlier, before we rolled, I think this concept of the game and people playing the game to live would have worked well with a with a white cast as well. I mean, obviously not with a black history questions, but I feel like what what they were going out to do, which was to basically make a movie that both embraced and subverted the black stereotypes, the concept behind it would have worked just as well with any other cast, you know, so it's, so it's not like they made a movie that panders to the black stereotypes. They made a movie that they made a creative horror movie that just they were happened to be able to throw this stuff into. And I think it works.
Jonathan Correia:Well, I'll give you that the basic horror concept of it of the friends in a cabin finding a board game being forced to it by a bunch of killers doing it, that concept very much that can be used with different casts. But the way the characters interact, the talk, everything with it, that's what really separates and makes it so special and so awesome, because that's how a lot of my friends, in the culture talk, which is absolutely hilarious. And they they do a really good job and that it plays with tropes. It's very meta, but it doesn't do the meta thing where suddenly the pacing and everything stops for them to point out the meta bits. You know, there's no scene of them sitting down. Well, in a horror movie, they do this. It's it's just quick reactionary. Like why do you do that? Don't say, we should, we should when she's like almost puking at the idea of them splitting up and she's like, No, don't do it. It's all quick. It feels natural. It's just them calling each other outgoing and throwing out quick references and I really respect that it does. I didn't really like the ending a whole lot I thought it was a little forced, but it still plays back to a lot of like, the slasher tropes of the 80s. Which I, which I did like
James Jay Edwards:this. I mean, speaking of the slasher tropes of the 80s. And it, the thing is, there's a different kind of group of people because you pretty much had the stereotypes in with the group, but the stereotypes are different because of who they are, like, one is the ex gang banger. One is the couple who are bad for each other, and they keep getting splitting up and getting back together. You know, there's the homosexual black guy. I mean, they're different. You don't just have the version of the slut, the jock, the brain, and the Stoner, you know, like you would have had in Scooby Doo or Cabin in the Woods or whatever, you know, you have, you have your own different stereotypes for the group, which I think worked well, as well.
Jonathan Correia:And I think that's because they made the simple decision of having this take place. I think it's their 10 year anniversary of graduating from college. So all these characters were those stereotypes back in college, you did have the jock, you did have the party girl, you did have the token, gay friend, but now they're all grown up, or at least 10 years older, and some of them got wiser. Some of them didn't, you know, some of them are just like, one moment away from like, falling back on those tendencies, which really helps like round out and ground those characters and Yeah, except, except again, for Clifton. Again, that was the that was the one character was like, not a fan. Not a fan. But again, yeah, lots of fun, very funny. Again, can't recommend seeing it with a crowd enough.
James Jay Edwards:Yeah, absolutely. See it with a crowd. It's it? Well, I mean, that kind of goes for all like slasher kind of movies, I think. But this one especially, which will bring us to our topic, which is going to be meta movies, which, I'm not sure how meta The Blackening is, because like you said, they don't actually stop the action to say, you know, this is what they do with you. It's not super self referential. I think it embraces the stereotypes and tropes enough so that you can make an argument for it being meta. But I and like you said, it's not a parody at all. It's not like, like, like Scary Movie where you just everything is like, you know, trope trope trope trope beat you over the head until it's just absurd. It's definitely more of a horror movie than a comedy even though it is hysterical.
Jonathan Correia:I think that's why it works so well is that at its core, it is a horror movie. It just is really funny. And so many crossbows.
James Jay Edwards:What are what are some other meta movies? We were talking a little bit about Cabin in the Woods. Yeah, Cabin in the Woods is one of those where like, the characters don't realize they're in a movie, but not only the audience, but you know, the people watching is basically a horror movie. Yeah,
Jacob Davidson:yeah. No, I like how in the Cabin in the Woods. It's basically the perspective of the characters in the movie. And like the whole mission control thing is basically the directors and writers in production of making the horror movie. So it is kind of meta in that way. Plus, you know, they talk they do talk about the rules, like they even have like a side where like, you know, they have the Harbinger character warns them that they're gonna die there and they go for it anyway. It's like, it's all part of the ritual, like they have to do it to appease the gods, like the audience. And, ya know, just they do kind of lay lay into that and set things up in certain ways associated with the tropes. You know, it's like the movie itself. You know, it's the cabin in the woods, and there are so many movies that are just about cabins in the woods. I oh, God, absolutely.
Jonathan Correia:mean, you can't talk about meta movies That popularized it. They weren't the first but they they popularized without bringing up the Scream franchise, you know, Yeah. Especially since you know, there
Jacob Davidson:They streamlined it. were horror movies that were put that would poke fun at a lot of the tropes. I mean, even in like the early days of slasher films, you had the Slumber Party Massacre movies, which were poking fun at it so much that a lot of audience didn't catch on to it. It just, it was a shitty slasher film, not realizing that it was a feminist take just like shitting on it, which is so good.
James Jay Edwards:That shows you how embracing those stereotypes the original slasher movies were that when they did a when they did a feminist take making fun of it. Everyone's like, oh, yeah, this you great slasher.
Jonathan Correia:Well, it also helps that they like absolutely went like hard on it, like, oh, yeah, we're gonna have them all in like their high school girls having a sleepover. So let's put them in sexy lingerie and like, really male gaze the shit out of this and yeah, the killer has a drill and we're in it's pretty phal- phallic on its own, but we're gonna really make it phal- phallic and then
James Jay Edwards:how they how they defeat him without spoiling anything is is how feminists should deal with the phallic invaders.
Jonathan Correia:If you ever watch a All the Slumber Party Massacre movies I'm telling you you're you're missing out on some of the most fun. Yeah,
Jacob Davidson:all of them are good like one through three and the remake all bangers
James Jay Edwards:and we've talked him up enough that people if you should have all seen them by now, if you haven't pause us and go watch at least
Jacob Davidson:up, but another one I gotta mention is Behind
the Mask:Rise of Lesley Vernon. Yes,
James Jay Edwards:yeah, almost kind of all found footage, quote unquote movies can kind of be seen as meta, but what makes Behind the Mask to it, What makes it more meta than than the others is how it kind of takes that right turn at about you know, that the third act?
Jacob Davidson:Yeah,
Jonathan Correia:well, not only that, but they fully fully fully embrace like the Susan Sontag mentality of slashers and going into the metaphorical senses of it and like fully spelling it out because it's a he's a slasher in training. He's coming up, you know, he wants to be the next Freddy and Jason and they treat him like they're real world serial killers and he's like, oh, yeah, need when you go in the closet, you're protected in there you know why it's representative of the vagina you know, just like going hard and explaining it and I just love how that movie fully understands that there's a certain point when shits going down that you put the fucking camera down that yet yeah, let the camera go I respect the shit out of Behind the Mask without that there's just a moment where they go, You know what documentary is over. And they put it down and then it goes cinematic. And it's like, yes, thank you. Thank you for addressing that.
Jacob Davidson:other thing is that it's like yeah, the the first part is, you know, it doesn't even really feel like found footage. It feels more like a mockumentary because like you're just following Lesley as he gets ready for his big debut and like going through his sessions and training because like, I love that He has a little thing like he has to you know get have really good cardio in order to catch up to all those teenagers.
Jonathan Correia:It's so hard because they're they're sprinting and you gotta make it look like you're just walking. Such a great bit.
Jacob Davidson:Yeah, it is. I feel like Behind the Mask is particularly underrated even though it does this solid breakdown, especially at the time of the mid 2000s of slasher movies and kind of where horror was at at that time. And he's just a fun character. You know, he's cuz that's the one thing I love in the mockumentary Lesley is very cordial. He's very talkative. You know, he doesn't feel like a threat until he does become a threat.
Jonathan Correia:And you see the characters in the movie that are filming him have that debate because they are all chummy with him and then he's like, Alright, guys, tonight the night. I'm gonna go do it. If you try to stop me, I will kill you. And then he just like runs off and they're like, holy shit, are we actually going to like you see, like, all of a sudden the veil drop and then go, Oh, my God, he's, he's actually doing this. He's actually gonna go murder these people. Are we going to just like, let this happen? You know, and that's when the cameras good. Yeah, Behind the Mask is real good. I love a good meta movie. When it's done right and when it's evident. But do you guys find that especially in the last, since 2000, there's moments where a horror movie suddenly goes meta, but not fully. Like, it just has like a moment where it's just like, of self awareness, just like, why, you know, like, I mean, like, the type of throwaway lines where it's like, well in a horror movie, they would do this, or oh, we're not doing that. I learned that, you know, and it's just like, why, like I get, maybe
James Jay Edwards:that's not a 2000s thing, because I think Friday 13th Part Six did that when she's like, Oh, because I've seen enough horror movie, she know that a weirdo and a mask is a, you know, is a bad sign or Well,
Jonathan Correia:which like I get, I get like that. But there's, there's just sometimes like a moment where it almost does a Scream because I love the Scream movies. But we have to admit that at a certain point, everyone's sitting down at breaking down the rules of a slasher film, especially when it's like that when there's specific where it felt it felt like the action kind of stopped, especially in the second one where it's like we're in a we're in a sequel, then you get to the third one. It's like no, this is the trailer. We're in a trilogy now. And there's like a certain point where it's like, Alright, you're kind of stopping the pacing a bit just to like, explain to us how smart your character is because they're aware and I don't know that kind of almost fourth wall breaking it kind of ruins the pacing at times, sometimes depending on what you're trying to do with with the film you know,
James Jay Edwards:sometimes it can be used like the metaness like in Urban Legend. Oh yeah, it always the the final scene in Urban Legend always bothered me because the killer, she goes and explain I just spoil that it's a woman that does the Killing Urban Legend, but she goes and she explained she's on. So what we have here and she explains the legend that she's going to be killing cycle. Come on, you're not a Bond villain. You know, let us figure this one out. You know, I mean So I guess Yeah, it's kind of more of a over explaining is what you're kind of gonna get.
Jacob Davidson:Yeah and urban. An Urban Legend is kind of a meta slasher in the in the way that, you know, is post Scream slasher that just kind of did the same thing for slashers. But with like urban legends. Yeah,
James Jay Edwards:totally. I think that almost all the only way you can do phenomenons like zombies or vampires are so embedded in the pop culture now that the only way you can do those movies now is to do the meta like, because everybody knows the rules with zombies and vampires. So like, like Shaun of the Dead. Granted, that's like a parody of like, you know, Dawn of the Dead, but everybody knows how to deal with it. So it becomes kind of meta in that in that the rules are understood. You know, and the same thing with like, new vampire movies, you're like, okay, yeah, we need a stake. We, you know, thankfully, it hasn't gotten that way with werewolves yet, yet.
Jonathan Correia:I mean, in some ways, I mean, there's definitely movies where there's like, a bit of awareness, like Lost Boys, tits upon those notes, where it's like, oh, well, you know, vampire lore exists and, you know, garlic, and, you know, they suffered some things, but I mean, they
Jacob Davidson:are Fright Night, Friday did somewhere. They had like an actor from a vampire movie to be to Vinson, you know, to come in to try and fight the vampire. Yeah.
Jonathan Correia:And, and in those moments, it works.
James Jay Edwards:One of the things I loved about Renfield so much is like, my favorite part of Renfield is when Dracula is in his apartment, and he looks down at the welcome mat, and it's like a welcome come on in. It doesn't beat you over the head with the fact that a vampire is got to be invited in it just does that one little shot and then Renfield is reaction you're like, oh, yeah, no, that's a great way to do that. You know, it reminds you if you knew it, you know,
Jonathan Correia:and I think that's what sets apart like good meta moments from bad because like Scream can get away with it because it's Scream. You know, we live for the we know, the big reveal is coming. We know the killers are going to over explain the why and their motives and stuff and we live for it, you know? And I think what that's one of the strengths of Redfield was that it had these moments of like, where they explained like, I've just recently watched Renfield, so I really appreciated the fact that it wasn't Dracula trying to make a bunch of vampires because he's such a selfish narcissist, that he just wanted a bunch of Renfields, that that was great. But also just the little things of just like, little tropes, like Renfield was always eating bugs. Why is why go because he was crazy. It's like, No, it's because he's got these powers. And he these getting lifeform like a vampire does, but because he's not a vampire, he doesn't drink buddy just takes the life from bugs. But it's just such a quick like, yeah, I get my power from bugs moving on. And it's just and I thought that was great. Because you don't need to stop the action. You don't need to pause all the time to fully explain everything, especially when your audience is already decently educated and stuff that's, like so ingrained in the society, or into the zeitgeist, I should say. And yeah, again, this isn't me, I please know when take this as me shitting on Scream because I fucking love those movies. But but it is just one of those things where it's, it's when it comes out of nowhere where the movie wasn't meta at all for like the first hour and then all sudden, it's like, I'm meta now for a moment and then like just keeps going on. It's like, Wait, what the fuck just happened? You know?
James Jay Edwards:Are you talking about, There's Nothing Out There when the guy uses the like to escape? Yeah,
Jacob Davidson:I mean, I love that bit. And actually, I was gonna bring up There's Nothing Out There because I think it is a pretty fun metal horror movie. And, and it was well before a lot of other metal horror movies. Because it's basically about Yeah, it's kind of a cabin of woods thing where all these friends go to the cabin in the woods. And there's this one guy who watches a lot of horror movies, and he's just like, Man, I got a bad feeling about this. This reminds me of a horror movie. And yeah, though, it's not a slasher movie. Or at least it's not like slasher killer that they encountered. It's like this weird, like, octopus alien creature that starts attacking them. And it's got these weird powers and stuff. And there's a lot of shenanigans with some of the tropes, like one of their friends leaves and says there'll be right back and then later they asked, like, what happened to them. And the metagame is just like, oh, I wrote them off hours ago, they're probably dead. So it's fun. It's fun.
James Jay Edwards:The boom mic scene. This is how ahead of its time it was when I was first watching that I was in a big group of friends. And when that scene came in, we're like, oh, hit the boom, the boom is in the shot, the boom is the shot and then he grabs it use it to swim. We didn't even realize it was part of the plot and we thought that there was a legit production mistake.
Jacob Davidson:Oh yeah, no, it's it's fun. There's a lot going for it. And he and even the opening there's this like action prologue where it said in a video store like this killer attacks this A video store clerk girl and all the horror movies in the video I'll start falling down and hitting her. So it just kind of really leans into that. Although back on Jonathan's example, or you know what he was talking about with this kind of weird one off meta moments, I was just thinking about Seed of Chucky kind of does that where it's not really a meta movie, but at the same time, they do have those moments where they kind of reflect on the tropes and cliches because it's a Hollywood movie a- oh God. It's like yeah, it's like a Hollywood movie about Chucky and Chucky and Jennifer Tillys character Tiffany comes alive and they actually have Jennifer Tilly as herself and yeah the they're making a movie called Chucky Goes Psycho. And Chucky and Tiffany come to life because their child and they do kind of reflect on some of the cliches and stuff but not enough where it's like the whole movies meta so it is it is kind of weird in that regard.
Jonathan Correia:Yeah. Does that take you guys out a bit? If if a and it's not just horror, it could be it could be either when a character is or is too aware that they're in a movie?
Jacob Davidson:I mean, figure depends on the context. I guess
James Jay Edwards:it depends on how well it's done. Yeah. Like, you know, one thing and I know we all love this movie, so it bothers me that this is in it. But the the scene in Funny Games where the guy rewinds it, that takes me out of it. Yeah. I do think that was Michael Haneke, his point. You know, I think that his point was to kind of take you out of it for a second. So I guess mission accomplished. But yeah, that that whole part is like, what the hell just happen? Yeah.
Jonathan Correia:Yeah. Again, I think, yeah, when it comes down to it, it depends, you know, because there's definitely like, movies like The 21 Jump Street movies, where, you know, they shout it, you know, there's the trope in the action movies, but like, I just hope that if you're going to do that with your movie, just don't don't mess with the pacing with it. And I think that's why, like, Shaun of the Dead works so well, like they're aware of it, they've seen the movies, but they're not aware that they're in a movie, right. And I think that's where the metaness the line between a good meta movie and a bad one is, is these characters can be aware that these movies that these tropes that these stories and things exist, but if once they know that they're in a movie, that's when it you know, there's there's a certain type amount of dialogue where it's just like, Okay, you're, you know, you're in a movie and you're over explaining, and you should never over explain, when it comes to a movie, especially in such a visual art form, you know, and yeah, that's why I think Shaun of the Dead and The Blackening works so well is because they're aware of the tropes they're aware of these things, but at no point do they go, Oh, we're in a horror movie right now. It's just a hey, don't do that stupid thing that stupid people do in horror movies, and then move on. You know,
James Jay Edwards:what about movies that they're not I guess they could be considered meta. What I'm what I'm talking about is West Cravens New Nightmare. Where it's basically a movie about the cast of Nightmare on Elm Street, you know? Yeah. That one, it's, they're not aware that they're in a movie, but they're playing themselves who used to be in this series, you know, and, and the villain of this, of the, of the movie they were in is coming after him, you know, that kind of thing? Would that be considered meta? Or would that just be considered self referential?
Jacob Davidson:I would get senator and betta. I mean, this was kind of the setup leading to Scream or at least, without New Nightmare, we wouldn't have gotten Scream which reflects more on kind of the tropes and cliches of the slasher franchise. But it's, yeah, it would, it would be considered meta, and self referential, because both kind of leaning into the other. In this particular case. They don't really discuss the tropes as much, but they do talk a lot about Freddy and the kind of ways the movie goes. Like there's also moments where the movie bleeds into reality. So they start acting more like their characters like Heather Langenkamp saying she's acting more like Nancy. And like she has that conversation with John Saxon. And she notices that he's saying dialogue from the movie without him realizing he's saying dialogue from the movie. Yeah,
James Jay Edwards:now one more since Correia is able to talk about Star Trek all the time. I want to talk about Book of Shadows again.
Jonathan Correia:I thought up Galaxy Quest for view. No,
James Jay Edwards:no, no. Do you guys think Book of Shadows is because Book of Shadows is more of a sequel to the hype surrounding the Blair Witch Project than it is a sequel to The Blair Witch Project. And all the characters are completely aware of the events of the first movie. Even though they're they're aware of the mythology and they're aware of, of the first movie, the first movie exists in their universe. Yeah,
Jacob Davidson:no, I completely agree with you and honestly, I feel that's the main takeaway from Book of Shadows and they should have leaned into that more. And, you know, it was a lot of what they were going for before the studio edited around to be more of a typical horror movie, because they had the great idea of like, you know, we're gonna do sequel but why just make another, you know, found footage thing. I mean, they already nailed that so perfectly in the first movie, we got to go about this completely differently. So they decided to do Yeah, this kind of meta thing where it says more about the fandom and the reaction and hype after the release of The Blair Witch Project. So it's following a bunch of Blair Witch Project fans that people think it's real and like the goth girl and the Wiccan, girl and all that. And just kind of, yeah, it's more dealing with the aftermath of the Blair Witch Project and the lore and they go into a lot of it as it affects them in real life. So, ya know, I would consider it to be meta movie is, especially in that regard,
Jonathan Correia:and a successful one with it. For the most part, I like that idea that they're not just going to do another Oh, another group of people get lost in the woods and encounter the Blair Witch, like they tried, you know, making that commentary on the hype on it and all that and another franchise that does that, too, is Human Centipede, cause Human Centipede 2 have the whole plot where it's someone who is so obsessed with the first movie tries to do it in real life, but he's obviously not a surgeon. He's just a psychopath, they, which they drive that point, very, very hard. Human Centipede 2 is the crown jewel of that franchise. And, and yeah, because it's just so gross. And so they go so hard for it, because like, the first one is just like three people that you know, their human centipede. Human Centipeded. Yeah, I think that's how you can use it as a verb. And it's, it's, you know, it's, it's, it's fine. You know, after the initial shock, you know, it's just like, Okay, now they're crawling around for a bit. But with Human Centipede 2. It's just like this dude doing a botched surgery on like, 12 people I think it is or something like that. Yeah.
James Jay Edwards:And he's making a loop. Yeah, he's
Jonathan Correia:trying to loop it. I don't know, I never saw the third one.
James Jay Edwards:The third one is about a prison. And they're trying to put all the convicts into one huge chain
Jonathan Correia:But like, Yeah, I think I think that there's a reason why I haven't watched the third one. But the second one I thought was was also really good. Because that one, much like Blair Witch 2, was kind of commenting on not just the hype around the first one because who, I mean, I was definitely one of those people before the first one came out going, guys, they made a horror movie out of ass to mouth guys, they made a horror movie out of ass to mouth. But like, it wasn't just the hype, and also the controversy, because there were so many people, you know, the typical narrative of like, all this thing is depicted in a movie or video game. And so people are going to try to emulate it's like, cool, I'm going to do that I'm going to create the most disgusting person possible and have them try to do human centipede quote, in real life because of the movie. And so it was not subtle at all. I think you can't use that word at all. What a describing human centipede movies.
Jacob Davidson:I feel meta horror has always existed alongside with the genre in the reaction to the genre, and it will continue to exist. So just you know, fun to see the different ways that it'll be tackled, especially as the genre continues to shift and change and get weirder,
James Jay Edwards:I just hope that it continues to get smarter as well, because that's because, you know, as long as they find clever ways to do it, then I'm all for I mean, I love when I love those aha moments that you know, that when you see someone realize something and it gets meta, you're like, Oh, yes. You know, I'm like Rick Dalton in Once Upon a Time in Hollywood, you know, pointing at the screen.
Jonathan Correia:I get that reference. Well, yeah, I mean, even going back to the old Abbott and Costello Meet movies like those got meta at times with those two. So as long as I mean, when something goes on long enough, there's going to be someone that goes alright, cool. Let's poke fun at it or let's call it out or let's try to do a fresh take with it. And I think as long as again you do you don't sacrifice the action you don't sacrifice the pacing for it, I think and it makes sense. You know, overall, why not? But also fuck it, why not pull Funny Games to just throw it in there just to throw people off? I mean, who am I to say I'm, I'm nobody.
James Jay Edwards:And why not give a group of people watching this stuff unfold like in Rubber. People on the Hill watching the movie unfolds in real life.
Jonathan Correia:I love Robert just signing. It was like a meta movie. movies that don't exist which is killer tire movies. It's great.
James Jay Edwards:Yep. All right, let's let's call this one an episode. So what are your favorite meta movies? What did we miss and You know, what did we talk about that you don't think is matter? What is matter that we didn't talk about? Let us all know, reach out. Our theme song is by Restless Spirits. So go give them a listen our artwork is by Chris Fisher. So go give him a like. And you can find us on any of the socials under Eye On Horror or at iHorror.com which is the site that we all call home. And yeah, let us know what you think of meta movies. Are they too meta? I don't know.
Jonathan Correia:Are you going to do a podcast episode that's meta about our meta episode?
James Jay Edwards:Maybe we need to minisode that meta's our full sode isn't that all podcasts are breaking the fourth wall. Anyway, let us know what you think. And we'll see you in a couple of weeks. So for me, James Jay Edwards.
Jacob Davidson:I'm Jacob Davison
Jonathan Correia:and I'm Jonathan Correia.
James Jay Edwards:Keep your Eye On Horror.
