Eye On Horror

Male vs. Female Gaze Part 1 with Murmurs from the Morgue

March 29, 2021 iHorror Season 4 Episode 6
Eye On Horror
Male vs. Female Gaze Part 1 with Murmurs from the Morgue
Show Notes Transcript Chapter Markers

This Episode, the guys are joined again by Kelly and Bri of Murmors from the Morgue as they tackle the differences between the male and female gaze in rape revenge films.

This is Part 1 of a special 2-Part crossover event.  Part 2 can be found over at Murmurs from the Morgue.

TRIGGER WARNING: This episode discusses movies that deal with sexual assault.  Sensitive listeners may want to skip it.

Correia: Twitter / Instagram

Jacob: Twitter / Instagram

Jay: Twitter / Instagram

Kelly: Twitter / Instagram

Bri: Twitter / Instagram

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Murmurs from the Morgue: Facebook / Twitter / Instagram

iHorror: Facebook / Twitter / Instagram / Webpage

Mascot Loomis: Instagram

James Jay Edwards:

this episode of Eye On Horror includes frank discussions about films which deal with sexual assault listeners who are triggered by content like this may want to skip it if you want to hear us catch up and hang out you're safe until about 16 minutes into the episode that's where the heavy stuff starts we hope you'll join us but we'll understand if you don't

Jonathan Correia:

and we here at the iHorror podcast network want to reiterate our stance that we condemn all abuse we stand with survivors that no film or art is worth supporting abusers and of course in light of recent news and allegations we'd also like to say fuck you richard stanley

James Jay Edwards:

welcome to Eye On Horror the official podcast of iHorror.com this is episode 63 otherwise known as season four episode six i am your host James Jay Edwards and with me as always is your other host Jacob Davison how you doing Jacob

Jacob Davidson:

doing good i'm sorry i kind of lost my train of thought still waking up

James Jay Edwards:

all right i think we're all still waking up also with us as always is your other other host Jon Correia what's going on Correia you waking up

Jonathan Correia:

i yeah a bit a bit better i got my energy drink on one side and a protein thing on the other we were moving into the new place so i'm you know calling in from from the new apartment now i'm dead tired though we've been moving for days now and then today's the final push slash cleaning sesh so you know it was fun scrubbing a carpet by hand at midnight last night for an hour

Jacob Davidson:

wow

James Jay Edwards:

there's a reason we're coming at you early although even though this is the same time that we record every episode we have with us special guests this week from the the worst coast not the best coast from three hours in the future we have Kelly and Bri from Murmurs From the Morgue back again how you guys doing

Bri Spieldenner:

hello

James Jay Edwards:

this makes the third time Kelly's been a guest and the second time for Bri so Bri joins the exclusive two timers club Kelly takes the lead as a three piece got it which has Waylon really upset because he thinks that he should be a four timer because we had a couple false starts with him but we go by published episodes not recorded episodes

Jacob Davidson:

so kelly's our steve martin to our snl

James Jay Edwards:

yes

Kelly McNeely:

i'll take it that's great i love it

James Jay Edwards:

can you play the banjo though

Kelly McNeely:

give me a year and i'll figure it out

James Jay Edwards:

in a year we're gonna hold you to it

Kelly McNeely:

and my banjo solo

Jonathan Correia:

i really do love his bluegrass music though like those oh yeah

James Jay Edwards:

he's a pretty badass musician a lot of people don't know that but he's a he's a hardcore musician oh yeah we're gonna do a real quick what have you been doing because we have a dense topic which we will get into in a few but for now let's let's what do you guys been doing what do you guys have been watching anything good i'll go first i watched and i know jacob did as well The Block Island Sound on Netflix and i think jacob and i disagree on it

Jacob Davidson:

yeah we were coming from two different worlds on this literally

James Jay Edwards:

yeah yeah exactly so yeah i've never been i've been to new england really the closest i think i've been to new england is pittsburgh but um i thought it was a mess of a movie i just i couldn't it's not i couldn't wrap my head around it it just didn't make any sense to me and at some point i feel like the filmmakers knew that wasn't gonna make any sense because i feel like there's a tacked on exposition character and jacob i knows i'm talking about the at one point that the sister goes to see a guy which you know he's there to explain what's going on and i even think that fails i don't know i just think it's a muddled mess of a movie it didn't make much sense defendant jacob

Jacob Davidson:

oh i think it really captured kind of that new england cosmic horror kind of style and likes it was c or Sea legends you know like it was like the supernatural and i was i did kind of genuinely feel like i you know like the new england fishing town with like certain characters and i was i just loved it because there is a scene where a character asked for a platter though that they kind of brought me back but yeah i mean what i didn't think it was great but if i was if i was pretty good though like you know kind of if i was an interesting blend of like I said, you know, the kind of cosmic horror but also as this kind of small New England town drama with like the character, the lead character deal with like the death of his father and like his family's falling apart and, and and you know just kind of on top of that the whole Block Island Sound thing so I think it also just kind of made me homesick

James Jay Edwards:

I will admit the way that they dealt with the dead father, um, was pretty creepy the way that he would just keep in places that that was pretty effective, but I think it it gets lost but you say that it's like cosmic horror, but I thought it was kind of grounded in reality until certain things would happen. And it's like it didn't know if it wanted to be cosmic or reality based, you know, it didn't know if it wanted to be fantastic or uncanny, I guess are the two things.

Jacob Davidson:

I don't know. I think it was just trying to be kind of ambiguous or, you know, just kind of just kind of go into some different styles.

James Jay Edwards:

Well, if if ambiguity was the goal, I guess they succeeded because it left me scratching my head.

Bri Spieldenner:

Got a great title though.

Jacob Davidson:

Yeah, yeah. Also, Block Island. Block Island is a very, very lovely place. I've been there a few times. It's island off the coast of Rhode Island.

James Jay Edwards:

Did the perfect storm make you home sick too. You probably lived there when the perfect storm came out.

Jacob Davidson:

No. Well, that's well that's the thing my I got family who lives in Glocester or Glocester now Yeah. And that's where it took place. It was kind of based upon funny story. I actually got my picture taken with one of the corpses from a perfect storm like there's a there's like a boof where like they've got on display.

James Jay Edwards:

Wow perfect storm for me nails that whole new england fishermen thing? Oh, yeah. But this is coming from someone who knows nothing about New England fishermen I just all I know about is the perfect storm so of course it nails

Jacob Davidson:

I know I had to be honest. I grew up inland.

Jonathan Correia:

I can tell you right now. Blow the Man Down captures small town New England absolutely perfectly. If you want to watch a super New England movie, Blow the Man Down or even The Lighthouse. There's there's there's a lot of people like that.

Jacob Davidson:

Oh, certainly. We're a lot of Willem Defoes.

Jonathan Correia:

And a whole lot of Robert Pattinson is talking like a Kennedy.

Jacob Davidson:

Yeah,

Jonathan Correia:

Did I a decent Kennedy. No, I didn't. Let's be honest.

Jacob Davidson:

Yeah, I grew up in Brookline, which is kind of Kennedy country and we're Conan's from. Yeah,

James Jay Edwards:

what else? If you've been watching anything good.

Jacob Davidson:

I watched a couple new things I liked. So like this week, two new movies, two new horror movies came out that I that really dug first off. Then David Rubinskis Happily. That was pretty interesting. It's okay. It's like this instead of kind of like a rom com Or like, kind of like a relationship dramaedy type thing with

Bri Spieldenner:

Carrie beach?

Jacob Davidson:

Yeah. Oh, yeah. It was Carrie beach. And Joe Joe McHale. Yeah, Carrie beach and Joel McHale play this couple that have been married for 14 years. And they are still madly, madly in love, to the point where they irritate their kind of high end la friends, including Paul Scheer. And then Stephen root shows up one day, it's kind of like this mystery man who says he's been sent by somebody to rectify their marriage because they're so happy, it's unnatural. And he wants to inject them with something and things start to go off the rails and crazy and Joel McHale and Carrie Bish, his characters go to like this couple's retreat at this fancy high tech house. And yeah, it was very interesting. Like his Yeah, like I said, you know, it was kind of cross genre, but it's very well written like I loved kind of the character interactions and the dialogue.

Bri Spieldenner:

I love that director's name. Then David, like one word, Ben David. Yes, that's a great name. Then David grip. Verbinski.

Jacob Davidson:

Yeah, he also did that. Are you afraid of the dark reboot? From a couple years ago,

Jonathan Correia:

which was phenomenal.

Jacob Davidson:

Oh, yeah, it was awesome. But um, yeah, so yeah, happily was cool. And this just dropped on Shudder Slaxx with two Xs

Kelly McNeely:

laugh tell us about

Jacob Davidson:

slacks. AKA the movie bad killer jeans. Actually was a lot more than that. Basically takes place at this. You know one of those kind of West Hollywood Beverly Hills High End clothing stores where they're releasing new jeans like super like top of the line form fitting anyone can wear them made from high end cotton material. jeans and like the company also like just keeps on going on about how they're, you know, humanitarian and like their their charitable But like everybody who works there, and a lot of people who go to the store are kind of

Kelly McNeely:

the worst.

Jacob Davidson:

Well, now they're well, yeah. Okay and parcours but like some of them are just like really?

Kelly McNeely:

Gonna Sorry, I said the worst. Yeah.

Jacob Davidson:

But you said coerced something up there. I was gonna say, jerks, but the worst is, because yeah, they're all very just kind of narcissistic and up their own assets, except for like, the new hire is kind of naive. And there's and yes, and so yeah, like one of the pants literally just comes to life and starts knocking off the people working at the store one by one and increasingly gory, and, like very creative ways. Like, what, like one of my favorites was like, like, one of the clerks steals the pants to wear them for herself. And the waistline starts getting tighter and tighter until like, she snaps in half. And yeah, and I really got to give the movie credit because the effects are pretty good blend of kind of practical and CGI, like it was kind of hard to tell between the two. But it's also because like, they do kind of puppeteer the pan. So like, it looks like it has a face in some scenes, or like it looks like the waistline is chomping at people.

Kelly McNeely:

Yeah. And actually the effects were done by I forget the name of the company, but they did the effects for Turbo Kid. They did the effects for Blood Quantum.

Jacob Davidson:

Oh, yeah.

Kelly McNeely:

It's from the producers of Turbo Kit as well. So it's like it's got that.

Jacob Davidson:

It's a Canadian movie.

Kelly McNeely:

Yeah. So that's super, super sort of like, cheeky, very fun. But at the same time, like really talking about that sort of conspicuously ethical practices that a lot of businesses have where it's like, you're deeply Are you really all that ethical or you just pretend to be ethical for the sake of like people coming in and yeah, I really liked that one. I think I did a review for that one on iHorror if anyone wants to check that out.

Jacob Davidson:

Oh, and I also did a review for Happily on iHorror if you want check that out, too. But yeah, I will say though I did Yeah. Did not expect a movie about killer pants to be so deep. Like actually touched on some pretty hot button issues.

Kelly McNeely:

Mm hmm.

Jonathan Correia:

Sounds a lot like that. A24 put out a movie not too long ago about a dress that

Kelly McNeely:

In Fabric Yeah, that's it. Yeah, it's it's very much like that. Yeah,

Jonathan Correia:

I need to watch that one. They kind of dumped like, I don't even think that one that has like a physical release anywhere.

Jacob Davidson:

Actually. Yeah, it does have a blu ray. It does. Okay, because I was just released like so under the radar. I don't think anybody really knew. Yeah,

Jonathan Correia:

I got that one digitally. So that would make for a good double feature. I think maybe a killer

Jacob Davidson:

dress or slacks.

James Jay Edwards:

Would it be a whole lot of the same movie though?

Jacob Davidson:

They're pretty different. Like Yeah, In Fabric is kind of like euro like surrealist? While it was Slaxx is like almost a straight up slasher or monster movie, but it's jeans is

Jonathan Correia:

killer outfit day, you know?

Jacob Davidson:

Yeah. All we need is a movie about a killer hat and killer shoes. Yeah. Then we can complete the ensemble.

Bri Spieldenner:

I definitely feel that there is a killer hat movie out there. Probably.

Kelly McNeely:

It's not someone needs to get on that immediately. I

Jonathan Correia:

mean, there's a killer. There's a bad movie Deathbed. True

Jacob Davidson:

Deathbed. Yeah, Patton Oswald had a whole set about it. Yeah,

Kelly McNeely:

there's Bed Of The Dead as well which is the Canadian one to that they also

Jonathan Correia:

there's multiple killer bed

Kelly McNeely:

multiple killer bed movies Yeah,

James Jay Edwards:

yeah. And under by the Asylum?

Jonathan Correia:

moments like this where I both absolutely love and hate our genre is that that line can happen just there's multiple killer bed movies made by people who sequel okay.

Jacob Davidson:

There's also there's at least two killer refrigerator movies to

Jonathan Correia:

Jesus

James Jay Edwards:

and don't even get us started on killer car.

Jonathan Correia:

Car is one of the best jaws ripoffs of all time

Jacob Davidson:

and it did it by combining with Stevens my ripping off Steven Spielberg's other movie dual.

James Jay Edwards:

Yeah, wow. And it's not even the best known killer car movie because of course we've got Christine.

Jacob Davidson:

Maximum overdrive.

James Jay Edwards:

Stephen King even ripped.

Jacob Davidson:

But did Christine have the Green Goblin face on it? I don't think so.

James Jay Edwards:

But did the Green Goblin truck catch on fire and chase the guy down a down a street?

Jacob Davidson:

None really

Jonathan Correia:

just said singer Christine's going down that narrow alleyway.

Jacob Davidson:

It's just oh yeah, it's

Jonathan Correia:

just so angry. I love it so much.

James Jay Edwards:

And then she catches the guy and she can't get to And then he's like haha just destroys yourself No.

Jonathan Correia:

Such a beautiful

Jacob Davidson:

car rescued Yeah, but just it's just we need to come up with like a compendium of different inanimate objects turned animals that have been made into the horror movies because you know, because yeah, like Jonathan's making you can look in the genre and I, you know, just so many different things that that come to life and try to kill you like, dolls

Jonathan Correia:

tomatoes, tires.

Jacob Davidson:

Oh, yeah, tires.

Bri Spieldenner:

list would be endless, though. If you were to create such a list. Oh, there's

Jacob Davidson:

a killer sofa movie. Sure, there's a couple of killer chair moves.

Kelly McNeely:

And there's a killer like washing machine One, two. Yeah, there's

Jacob Davidson:

a couple. That's Oh, come on computers. So many killer computers.

Bri Spieldenner:

Oh, yeah.

Kelly McNeely:

My next list.

Jacob Davidson:

Killer phones. Yeah, just

Bri Spieldenner:

killer houses.

Jacob Davidson:

Killer art. Yeah, just say, if you think about it, just anything could kill you. I guess. If it was by a ghost or a serial killer. Yeah, whatever.

Kelly McNeely:

The horror genre has taught us anything. It's that everything and anything can kill you.

Bri Spieldenner:

Which is true. Yeah.

James Jay Edwards:

Do we have any more new watches me I want to talk about it? Or do we want to just jump right into our topic, which is going to be the only other thing I've watched is in preparation for our topic. Anybody else want to talk about anything that's not pertain to the topic speak now or we're moving on.

Jonathan Correia:

So Mamma Mia Here We Go Again, is like the Magic Mike. XXL of musical is based on Abba's song book. That's all I wanted to say.

James Jay Edwards:

Sure. Okay. So the reason this is a crossover with murmurs from the more is because this topic is so deep, we're going to carry it on to their podcast. This is a two parter. And yes, you have to listen to murmurs from the morgue to hear the second part and murmurs in the morgue. listeners have to listen to us to hear the first part right now. Basically, we did and it started as a discussion. Oh, it might have even been months ago. I know. It's at least weeks between the five of us about basically, it started after we all saw St. Maud or most of us saw St. Maud have we all seen say mod at this point. Okay. Yes. Awesome. It started, we were discussing the difference between between st Maud which is directed by a woman and something like The Exorcist, which wasn't, which is real religious Horry. And we started kind of talking about the differences between the male and female gaze. And on this on Eye On Horror is half of this topic, we're going to mainly discuss the rape revenge films because I think that we need a whole episode for that. And then we'll continue on murmurs in the more clearly I spit on your grave is the rape revenge film. And then we've got promising young woman directed by a woman. And also, this is what I watched to prepare for this MFA. This is on Kelly's recommendation. And I almost think M.F.A is a better parallel MFA to me could be promising young woman with just a little more crazy, honestly, because because both of the quote protagonists because they're not good people. But they're the heroes are crazy. But I think MFA she takes it a little further. But let's get started by just talking about the differences in the actual rape scene I spit on your grave has and I spit in a grave is clearly a female empowerment. I mean, there's no, there's no, I mean, there's no no ifs, ands, or buts about that. But the actual rape scene is so uncomfortable, it's not fetishized at all, but it is first you know, it's a gang rape scene, she gets raped by these four guys in the middle of the woods, and then they leave her there. So she walks home naked in the middle of the woods, and the scene takes like 15 minutes to unfold. And then she walks home, and they're waiting for at home for another 15 minutes. You're like, knows what this for group I mean, it's I understand the filmmaker is trying to generate anger, which it totally does, because anything that the girl does after that to these guys is justified because of this ordeal she's been through, but it is so graphic. And so like I said, not fetish size, but it is, um, and it's in no way glamorize. But it is definitely from the male perspective. And then an M.F.A., the rape scene, you know, we should have said this earlier, but there needs to be trigger warnings all over this whole episode, because we're talking about stuff that may be triggering. So if that's you, you may want to skip this one. But I hope you don't, because I think we're gonna have a lot of cool stuff to say. But you may be triggered. And also we're going to be talking about a lot of spoilers and unnecessary, but we'll try not to spoil anything that is too that that is too surprising. I mean, like, clearly there's going to be a rape and M.F.A. because that's the crux of the movie. That's the inciting incident and the way it's handled by the director of M.F.A. And her name is slipping my mind

Bri Spieldenner:

Natalia leatt LE i t. So I don't know how to pronounce that

James Jay Edwards:

the way she handles it is at first you think that it is just going to be just a brutal rape scene with this guy just, you know assaulting this girl, but then they do weird things with a sound, it's like the sound all gets muted. There's almost this ringing in the ears. And it focuses on the girl's face, you know what's happening to her in the rest of the room. But it It's, um, it's definitely from her point of view. And it is I got the impression that it was taking you out of her body like the same thing she was probably doing to get through it herself. She's going to another place. And that's where you went. And I saw this so interesting that it didn't have to show and it was just as effective at getting you angry at this guy as I spit on your grave. But it was not as for lack of a better term, not as graphic. It's still as angering, but it's not as exploitational. Maybe that's the word I'm looking for.

Bri Spieldenner:

The thing to keep in mind also is the M.F.A. came out in like 2017, I think or 2017. Yeah, 2017. And I spit on your grave came out in 1971, I believe. So there are like just going to be those cultural differences. I Another thing I think is interesting about those two movies specifically is that and I spit on your grave. The people who are committing these atrocities are just like these neighborhood boys. They're kind of like, you know, ruffians. Whereas an MFA, it's like an a guy that the main character actually almost had a relationship with, she was like, kind of close to him. And it was really just a miscommunication and a situation that got out of control that could very easily happen to anyone.

Kelly McNeely:

I think the thing that is really effective about MFA is again, it's someone she knows which statistically, that's more likely to happen. And also, the rape is really aggressive, but it's not violent. It's something that he doesn't realize, like he should realize, because she's saying no, and she's saying stop. But he thinks that this is all fine. She confronts him afterwards, and he doesn't realize that what he did was a horrible, horrible thing.

Bri Spieldenner:

Well, the stop you there, sorry. But in my opinion, the rape was kind of violent, because he is not only just sexually assaulting her against her will, but he's like throwing her

Kelly McNeely:

That's right. He's like physically manipulating, like,

Bri Spieldenner:

pulling her hair and like, yeah, in a very aggressive way. So it's not like bad, like, gang rape level of violence, but it was pretty violent, in my opinion,

James Jay Edwards:

hes not like punching her in the face or anything. throwing her around. He's pinning her down. He's pulling her hair. He's kind of shoving her face into the bed. Kind of I mean, he it is.

Kelly McNeely:

It's aggressive. Yeah,

James Jay Edwards:

yeah, it's not nice, sweet lovemaking. It is. It is a it's an assault.

Kelly McNeely:

Yeah, yeah. And I think the interesting thing as well with I spit on your grave is I can never pronounce his name correctly. But my name is Archie. He created the movie based on a note his own experience where he was walking home. Yes. And he encountered a young woman that had just been assaulted. And she was brutally brutally assaulted. He took her to the police and they kept asking her these questions about what happened to her while her jaw was broken. And he was trying to convince them like, please just take her to the hospital. Let's get this taken care of we need to get her taken care of. And so he was he was inspired to create this movie based on that experience and and how horrific it was and how awful it was. He really wanted to have something that would that would, you know, not necessarily be it would be sort of empowering. I guess it's it is a feminist film. I really

Bri Spieldenner:

I'm glad you brought that up, Kelly because we're not here to just like bash men filmmakers and be like, you know, women rule boys drool. I do. In my opinion, as a female and watching I spit on your grave. I actually kind of like the other than the fact that it was disturbing me the entire time. I did think that it really did like come from a place of concern for women. Absolutely. Yeah, I think it is a little reactionary. But I do think that the filmmaker like clearly had respect for women, or at least because of that situation. He was like, holy shit. Women actually experience horrible things.

James Jay Edwards:

Yeah, he definitely. I mean, he is coming from the right place. The thing is I the differences in approach of the actual rape, like the differences in the way the filmmakers emotionally manipulate the audience to get on board with these revenge seekers, I guess is worlds different. I mean, the the male gaze, he just hit you over the head with it, where it's much more subtle, but just as powerful with the female gaze, and you see

Jonathan Correia:

that in Jennifer Kent's The Nightingale as well, because

James Jay Edwards:

it's even more so in the night is during

Jonathan Correia:

scene. It's all the focus is also just on the her face and she checks out and then while it's happening, you, it cuts to kind of like the sky. It's almost like you're taking her perspective and putting you in her position, whereas like a lot of older rape revenge movies, there's times where like, how it's filmed and where the camera angles are and stuff, it almost feels like you're the assailant, which can be very powerful in that it's putting you in this position that you don't want to be because I don't think there's really anyone who's watching these movies rooting for anyone, other than other than the survivor, and just them getting out of it. You know,

James Jay Edwards:

no one gets titillated by I spit on your grave.

Jonathan Correia:

I hope not.

James Jay Edwards:

what you've got problems? If you do, yeah,

Bri Spieldenner:

well, so on that subject as well, I going back to that there is like just this huge gap in time, I also want to bring up the like in the 70s. That was also around the time that war footage started being shown on television. So I feel that it is related in a way that it's like, these are, this is what's happening in the world. These are the atrocities that are happening, you're seeing it on your TV, you're seeing it in your movies, it's all related. And so I think that was kind of not that I'm like defending it or anything, but I think it was just kind of like one a stylistic thing and to like the filmmaker kind of being like, this is a horrible thing. So you should see it

Jacob Davidson:

Now that I think we should also talk about kind of the presentation because I just as an additional thing, I do like to watch the trailers for these movies just to see kind of how they were presented to the public. And, you know, you watch the I spend the grave trailer. And because I feel again, I was just kind of being a product of its time, it was kind of presented in that kind of Grindhouse manner where Well, yeah, you know, especially back then, you know, they kind of have to tell the whole movie to sell the movie in the 70s because there wasn't really much other way to sell it. But yeah, just said it's Yeah, you know, like it has this narrator talks about, like this woman was attacked and assaulted by these four men, and now she's going to get them back. And you know, just kind of shows, and I don't remember if it was all of them, but it shows a chunk of them without actually showing the violence that she's like, kind of picking them off one by one and kind of leaving some of it to your imagination so that you'll see the movie. So it does kind of have that kind of Grindhouse exploitation film aesthetic when being marketed. And then you compare it to trailers for you know, modern day movies like you know, going back onto the nightingale, which is more because again, forget it's and the subject matter, it's kind of presented a more high end manner. It's like it is this is not by any means exploitation, or Grindhouse. It's kind of like a higher tier,

James Jay Edwards:

the poster fries spit on your grave. I'm going to read the tagline right here. It says, This woman has just chopped, crippled and mutilated for men beyond recognition, but no jury in America would ever convict her.

Jacob Davidson:

Oh, yeah, they use that in the trailer, too. Yeah,

James Jay Edwards:

it tells you right there. It's like, Okay, this woman is gonna do all this shit. And she's justified. And, and I think that that's part of why they make the rape scene. So graphic is because you have to justify. And that's the only way I think that at least back then that's that's the way that I think the man justified is by making it he was thinking like a man. He's like, let's make this as brutal as possible. Whereas, I mean, I still can't get over how effective that scene in MFA was. I mean, it haunts me. Hmm.

Bri Spieldenner:

Related also to that. Another difference that I noticed is considering what you just said about that being justified. In a lot of the women directed rape revenge films, I feel like the police were a huge presence. And then, like the main character was always evading the police. And that was kind of like, showing like, oh, men are not going to be punished for their crimes, but women are going to be punished when they like, retaliate. Whereas like, when men tell these stories, it's almost like this fantasy of the women like being able to get away with that, whatever she wants. That was

James Jay Edwards:

a common theme in promising young woman and MFA was like they tried to go by the actual, you know, legal channels and they were shuns, like all Screw it, I'll do it myself, you know?

Jacob Davidson:

Yeah, I guess it's to highlight a broken system. And yeah, back on, on the nightingale, like the her rapists were soldiers and, and the constable or so it's and when she goes to his commanding officer, like he is like, he doesn't really do anything about it. And no, and because he's an officer and she's a convicts and an Irish convict that that like, nobody, nobody would really care. So it so yeah, a lot of these films kind of highlight the systemic failures and abuses that come with ace

James Jay Edwards:

and wasn't any one of the rapists in the I spit on your grave remake a cop?

Jacob Davidson:

I was a sheriff. Yeah,

James Jay Edwards:

yeah. So so and that one I mean, that was 30 years later. Hmm,

Bri Spieldenner:

what do you guys think about the remake? Um,

Jonathan Correia:

I didn't watch the remake? I'll be honest.

James Jay Edwards:

And I was fine with it. Um, you know, it was, I think it was a little unnecessary. But I mean, I was okay with it. You know, it's not as shocking as the original. But part of that is, like you said, the time period when you're you're looking at, you're like, Oh, this is 1978. You know, how they get away with this? And that's the answer to the question. It was 1978.

Unknown:

Right. Yeah, I

Kelly McNeely:

think, again, going back to that idea that, particularly in rape prevention, and that are directed by women that the authorities are kind of absent or even just sort of halting progress in a lot of ways

James Jay Edwards:

or complacent, you know, in some of them. Yeah. Yeah.

Kelly McNeely:

Yeah, it becomes a problem for women themselves to solve and it's about it becomes about taking that control back. Whereas I think there's some I can't remember the name of it. But I know that there have been a few rape revenge films where it focuses heavily on the justice system, there's one that's really just a court procedural that is about like the aftermath of this rape and going through the court process. And the end, Justice wins, and it's great, but it sort of pulls back when you're, I forget the name of the movie, and it's gonna drive me crazy now. But when the film ends, there, it ends with a pullback shot on the courthouse. So the focus is on justice and on the courthouse and on that winning, whereas in other films, and it pulls back, the focus is on the woman. And and her just said that she shot that she's found for herself. So there's a female self sufficiency that can be found and rape revenge films, I think

Jonathan Correia:

that's one of the things because we've talked about it before promising a woman is one of my favorite movies of the year, like, in recent time, really, I've already watched it about two or three times. And all of these themes are coming up, especially the failed system. And a lot of promising a woman is about her addiction, to control. Like, that's what she's doing with these men, when she's going back to the place. She's not killing any of them. She's just kind of like putting them back in her place, becoming the person in control. And one of the unique things about that film compared to all these is there is no scene, there is no scene of the Act. It wasn't even her it was her friend. They do have audio play of it later on, but you don't see it, the character watches it. And I thought that was so powerful. Because one of my biggest things is, we already know these acts are terrible. We already know this is a bad thing we don't need I always find it. so lazy. When filmmakers say well, I'm doing this, because you know, it's because so people know it's bad. We already know it's bad. You need more you need other motivation.

Bri Spieldenner:

But do they? Like it's happening so much? So like, clearly, some people don't realize like that it is bad, which is something that is mentioned an MFA, like when the main character confronts her rapist, he's like, nothing really happened. Yeah, exactly. What are you like freaking out about? I

Jonathan Correia:

would say that's, that's different. Because that's showing, you know, it's, it's like, we already know that if you go out in a van and kidnap a random person and commit that type of Act, we already know, that's bad. But those gray area things that definitely needs to be talked about that like, you know, oh, well, I you know, we had a few drinks. And it wasn't until it was already happening. So it wasn't really you know, when those like, suppose you know, gray areas or things, you know, that definitely needs to be brought up and stuff,

James Jay Edwards:

kind of along that same line of implied consent. We were talking yesterday, and I don't think any of us except for maybe Kelly has seen this Violation. And weigh them is talking about a scene in Violation where a woman is she's being assaulted. And then she says don't stop and then of course, the guy's like, don't stop Okay, I'm on this so and you can correct me if if the context is wrong, and that Kelly but that that's just hearing what waylynn was saying about it. It's almost like in these guys minds, they twist it they say she said don't stop

Kelly McNeely:

and I want to talk about Straw Dogs a little bit too for that sort of content.

James Jay Edwards:

Straw dogs is problematic because the actress in the original not so much in the remake in the original you almost the way peckinpah directed it, you almost get the impression that she's enjoying this. Yeah. And it's so problematic. You're like, Well, no, this is this is another dude's wife. She shouldn't be enjoying this. But if you look at her face, and I'm not sure if this was Susan George's, you know, her own interpretation of it or peckinpah said, Give us a little bit of a smile and a moan. I'm sorry to cut you off. But I mean, yes, you're right. Yeah, Starw Dogs definitely applies.

Kelly McNeely:

Definitely problematic as well. Like there's a quote from Sam Peckinpah and an interview he did with playboy that says there are women and there's pussy. So again, not really the best person to be and the fact that Straw Dogs as well as that it's not a revenge film. For the for the woman. It's a revenge film for the man. The husband. Yeah, the husband. He's like reclaiming. Like, no, this was my wife like it's, it's It's a very problematic film. I think

Bri Spieldenner:

that's another thing I want to talk about that was really popular in the 70s is that there was a lot of movies. And that's where the rape the female rape revenge film came from is that there was a lot of movies specifically like Death Wish and like what you're talking about, where it's about these men living in the city with their families, and then some like unnamed assailant, like breaks into the dude's house or whatever, and rapes and kills his wife. And then he goes out and takes revenge on these people. And that is like, it is kind of a reactionary thing. It's kind of like a racist response to problems in one person's city. And I think it is interesting how that did, like how it transferred into the female rape revenge film. So yeah, I do think that is related to the 1970s, kind of like racism in the city.

Jonathan Correia:

And to go back to Straw Dogs, especially that that bit where there's that moment of enjoyment, I remember in film school, we dissected the shit out of it for one of my women film classes, and the professor was very adamant about it. And she goes, why do you think that this was included? And obviously after hearing that, that quote from peckinpah, it's a bit hard to, it's very hard to defend that. But there is bodily reactions to when these things happen. And it's something that's especially brought up when men are raped. You know, there's always the line, oh, men can't be raped. Well, with enough stimulation, you know, your body's going to react to things. So sometimes there is that moment, and some because, again, different cases, you know, things play out differently. And I just remember so that the professor didn't defend it. But she said, but the we believe this is the why that choice is happening. Because sometimes, you know, the body reaction reacts to it, that doesn't mean that she wanted it. And that's a big part of that argument, too, is, oh, well, in this moment, this happened. And it's like, well, no, and it's the same with men. You know, if there's enough stimulation, you know, you can get a reaction out of it. And that's but so the argument that men can't be raped is, again, invalid if someone does not consent to it. They it's not consensual. That's, that's very, to put it very simply. No,

Kelly McNeely:

yeah, yeah, absolutely. And there's speaking of films directed by women, and I'm going to look up the director's name, but Baise-moi, which is a new French extremity film, that that one, again, is about like these women that are taking that control back. And the interesting thing about that one that I that I found is, during the rape scene, it's two women that are simultaneously being raped. And the one is sort of fighting and screaming and, and putting up one hell of a fight and just completely to no avail. Whereas the other woman is just like, she just sort of realizes like, there's nothing I can do about this. We fight it like there's nothing I can do in this situation. And it's a really sort of sad and an interesting sort of play of recognizing that power shift. And it's upsetting. Again, like the fact that it was directed by a woman and she recognizes that like, Do women to women, thank you? Yes.

Bri Spieldenner:

Let's get their names very French. So I'm very, I will not be able to help you probably come on Canadian

James Jay Edwards:

to give us our French pronunciation. She's

Jonathan Correia:

not in Canada.

Kelly McNeely:

I'm guessing vision he just spent and clearly, that's my best friend.

James Jay Edwards:

Better than any of us could do.

Kelly McNeely:

But yeah, so and I think the interesting thing with that one as well is that they actually use I think, former porn stars for that. So there is actual penetration in that film as well.

James Jay Edwards:

Wow, the Lars von Trier on us. I don't need to know that.

Kelly McNeely:

So there's a there's a film that's fun with new French extremity.

Bri Spieldenner:

Speaking of Lars von Trier, actually, going back to the nightingale. I also wanted to mention, the first time I saw the nightingale I was kind of surprised at the level of violence and disturbing imagery that was in it, considering that the only film that Jennifer Kent had directed at that point was the Babadoock. But I recently found out that Jennifer Kent was actually a student of Lars von Trier. And she was on the production of Dogville. Oh, which I think really says a lot about that movie specifically.

Jacob Davidson:

Yeah. And I actually saw it for the first time and in preparation for this. And yeah, no, I was just kind of blown away by just how and how intense and visceral it was. And yeah, I mean, in part, that was why I kind of put it on my watch list for so long. Just, you know, I was kind of, I wasn't sure if I was prepared. But no, it was a it was justified in its violence, I think because, you know, like, beyond being a rape revenge movie. It is a massive indictment of colonialism.

Kelly McNeely:

Yes. Oh, yeah, absolutely.

James Jay Edwards:

There's another layer with the nightingale. I mean, it goes beyond rape revenge. I mean, there's you know, and I don't want to spoil anything, but if you really want to get pissed off, yeah, there's another layer to The Nightingail beyond just the rape revenge Oh,

Jonathan Correia:

it deals with that it deals with indentured slavery, it deals with cultural erasure, it deals with genocide. Like, it's, it's all these heavy things and done so so well. But to go back to Kelly, you were saying about that scene, where one of them were, it was two women and one gave in, I actually used to teach women and children's safety classes, and especially with the women's classes, we had to talk about these subjects a lot. And one of the things that the hardest day of those classes was talking about the situations where you have no other choice but to comply in the moment because your life is on the line. And especially I was a teenager teaching these classes. So being 17 teaching, and being the only man in the room, you know, it was always that was those moments were the ones where I took a step back and let you know others in the class talk about because no one wants to hear a 17 year old man say those things. But that was the hardest lesson that teach was, you know, if your life is on the line, comply. But you know, we always had to teach the, you know, look around you What do they look like? What were they wearing, try to gather this information. And that also sucks. Because we so much as a culture teach, you know, don't have too many drinks when you're going out watch what you're wearing. It's always the defense that we have to put on women to protect us when we're not teaching men just don't do these things. Just don't

Unknown:

wait. Yeah, just don't do it.

James Jay Edwards:

I remember hearing when I was in this was years ago that decades ago, hearing about a rape trial where the the rapist was caught who's on trial and the victim. What happened is, during the rape, the victim realized she was gonna get raped. So she basically talked him into wearing a condom and how she did it is she she she supplied him with the condom because she knew she was going to get raped and how she you know, she talked him into it is she goes will wear this condom and he's like, he's, I don't have AIDS. She was how you know, I don't and that planted the seed of doubt in his head. So he wore a condom when he raped her. So his defense during trial was it was consent because she gave him the condom and he put it on and of course it didn't work he still got convicted because the woman she basically use that she said she said I knew this was gonna happen I was just protecting myself from further damage. I still said no, no,

Kelly McNeely:

yeah, yeah. And I think that's one of the interesting things going back to I spit on your grave is that a lot of the concerns and complaints about it being quote unquote, exploitative dues teen it comes more often for men than for women. And I think that it's because those socializes women are raised with this fear and knowledge in a way that men aren't. So for us, it's still horrible and shocking, but we're raised with this idea that like this can happen. This does happen. Right? So it's a good Yeah. Heavy topic today, guys.

Jonathan Correia:

Especially compared to the last time we had you guys. Just sizing about our fate about possible crossovers. You know? Yeah, you

James Jay Edwards:

know, it's funny it I don't know if you guys see this every time I see on the cable guide for Allen Vs. Farrow. I see alien versus fair.

Kelly McNeely:

Yeah, Sam, I'm

Unknown:

another one.

Jonathan Correia:

Mia Farrow on a ship with.

Bri Spieldenner:

I don't know if we're gonna wrap up soon. But do we want to discuss the movie Miss 45? Yeah, actually,

Jacob Davidson:

I was just thinking about that.

James Jay Edwards:

I'm surprised Korea has not brought it up yet. Let's talk 45.

Jonathan Correia:

Well, and I and I do think I'm absolutely loving this discussion, because I was one of the ones that was so adamant about, especially talking about Ms. 45. Because that was a recent first time watch for me. And it left me very angry. Mostly, because one of my biggest issues when it comes to films like this genre, or antebellum is the fact that we don't get to know these characters as people before these acts are committed. And that's my biggest grievance when it comes to these scenes of such extreme violence and such violation is that we don't get to know these people. all we see is a body just getting assaulted and tormented. And when that especially in those opening bits, there's a real stripping of humanity even before the act happens. And it's just a body and i and i how I feel about it is that it kind of is just it. in its own way, it doesn't fetishize it, but it detaches the audience and the viewer from viewing these characters as people. And Miss 45 is another one where we almost know nothing about this character. And then she's not only assaulted outside of her house in an alleyway, she's very quickly assaulted as soon as she gets home by another person. And I will say, after those scenes, the film really dives into the effects on her and it does a really great, really fantastic job of iconography with her with her 45 in the red lipstick, and

Bri Spieldenner:

Apple, she kills the first guy,

Jonathan Correia:

and I love that. But I just want to get your guys's opinions on on that type of lack of character development, not really knowing who these like promising does a good job of showing bits and pieces of who these people have who you know carry Mulligan's character was before the act happen, you know, there's a lot of talk do that. Well, they

Bri Spieldenner:

I really don't. I don't know. Because I felt like that movie was like really detached from like, just telling anything about her backstory even up to her motivations. I was confused about which I think was intentional on part of the filmmaking but, you know, still, I think that it was like, pretty detached.

Jacob Davidson:

Yeah, I'm gonna agree with Brianna on that. Because, Yeah, we do. Because Yeah, we do. I kind of get to know Carrie Morgan's character, but we don't really get her backstory, like everything is told secondhand. So, you know, it's not, you know, is upfront about it. And yeah, on the subject is 45. Like, the other big factor is that the character is mute, so she can't even talk. So yeah, and, and I do feel like she was kind of denigrated, even before she was attacked. Because like, in the beginning, like the other seamstresses kind of blow her off and like her bosses murder her and she and she's mutes like, nobody really, like, cares for her. So yeah, just and Yeah, exactly. That's the thing. Like, there's not really a lot of character to her so much as like, she becomes like, you know, just kind of, like, vengeance itself. And, you know, goes after these guys,

Bri Spieldenner:

it reminds me a lot of a movie that came out around the same time, which is more famous taxi driver. I feel like they're really similar characters.

Jacob Davidson:

And also on the iconography. There's also that scene where she dresses as a nun for Halloween,

Bri Spieldenner:

I noticed that in a lot of these movies that like before some sort of murder or something the women do dawn, these Halloween costumes promising young woman MFA, they're all wearing costumes. What's up with that?

Jacob Davidson:

Maybe it's just kind of a way for, like masking themselves after the assault or like showing a change in their character

James Jay Edwards:

or possibly assuming a different identity when they do it. Yeah,

Kelly McNeely:

yeah. Because I think it's also like, particularly in ms 45, and MFA, they kind of find freedom in the murder. Like the whole thing with MFA is just this whole side plot of when we first enter the film, and we're learning about her as an artist. And everyone's saying, like, Oh, it's very contained, it's very censored. And then it's not until she starts going around murdering people that her art really starts to flourish. And I think with, with Ms. 45, as well, like, she kind of like First off, she kills her rapist with an iron, which is a tool of her trade. So I think that's kind of funny. But the fact that the reactive murder turns to proactive murder, she's going after men who take it as their do to dominate and abuse women. And I think that it's the whole having her view not really knowing much about her is kind of a double edged sword there because on the one hand, it allows you as an audience to really sort of slip yourself into that character a little bit more because we're and but at the same time, you lose a lot of our character in the process. So it is sort of it's tricky with that one, but

Bri Spieldenner:

Fun fact, that actress Zoey lunch, she was only 17 at the time that she filmed, though,

Jacob Davidson:

didn't know that.

Kelly McNeely:

There's I don't think there's any nudity in the rape scenes is there? I don't

Jacob Davidson:

I don't think No, I don't think so.

Kelly McNeely:

No. Yeah, from is 45 maybe because she was 17 perhaps

Jacob Davidson:

probably also on Brianna's earlier point like I feel like Ms. 45 also kind of address those reactionary ideas from like it because other that was other Ms. 45 was in the 80s. Right? Yeah. 81 so it was around the same time period, because like most of her victims are, you know, like, thugs and like, like, criminals from around New York back when it was New York City. Yeah. When it was the big run Apple, and also one of her one of the people she kills is like an Arab Sheikh who picks her up. Yeah. And one thing in particular, I remember is like, she goes to what was it Central Park and like, she's surrounded by this gang. And you know, just and you know, very typical kind of 80s looking gang of people very weird background wearing kind of rundown clothes and like they and they advance on her on her and when she started shooting like she kills a couple of them in the restaurant off

James Jay Edwards:

i didn't she put herself into that position though i mean she

Jacob Davidson:

yeah she used herself as bait yeah

James Jay Edwards:

she went hunting yeah

Jacob Davidson:

oh no she definitely drew them in to try to try to assault or rape her and she and yeah i feel like that and that was like i think halfway to the movie so it's when she's already racked up a body count and she's starting to get a better now she's getting she's getting good at it

James Jay Edwards:

yeah burn in her name ms 45

Jacob Davidson:

like the firt like her first kills were people who you know attacked her and then as it goes on she starts learning men to kill

Kelly McNeely:

yeah again it's sort of she it starts as reactive but she turns it proactive by being like well i'm gonna go hunting for these people down and seek them out and kill them before anything happens i guess

Jacob Davidson:

exactly

Bri Spieldenner:

and if you remember the beginning of that movie actually starts with her walking to and from work and when she's walking to and from work all these men are cat calling her and like trying to like have sex with her so i think that is kind of like that scene that you were just talking about is mirroring the beginning of it

Jacob Davidson:

right

James Jay Edwards:

i think this is a this is a good stopping point i think

Bri Spieldenner:

and i have one more final thoughts sorry i just wanted to say that because a lot of these rape revenge movies people are always like they're so harmful to society they're encouraging more rape i personally don't find that these movies are like actually being damaging to society what i think is more damaging is movies where specifically men are very blood say and being very rapey but it's treated like a normal thing for instance like maybe the breakfast club like constantly like goading women into dating them after they say no and no again like that kind of innocent writing of that and movies i think is worse than actually showing like graphic and disturbing rape scenes and movies

Jonathan Correia:

i fully agree or even movies like super bad where yeah you know these moments where it's like oh well you guys just need more alcohol to loosen up you know or you know or oh she's drunk so you have to get drunk now because then it will be cool where there's lot lines where it definitely blurs you know ability of consent and stuff like that i agree i think those are far more harmful because again especially having this talk like i went into this very against having extreme scenes you know depicted you guys remember our early talks where i was saying fuck miss 45 now reconsidering thoughts on that movie but these other movies are i feel much more damaging

Jacob Davidson:

and they're also more consumed by the general public

Kelly McNeely:

yeah yeah exactly it normalizes that type of behavior which is not super helpful

James Jay Edwards:

yeah let's continue this discussion over on murmurs from the morgue where it will post two days after this so go there and and listen to us we were going to go into different genres than rape revenge so it might not be as triggering there but i'm sure we're still going to trigger somebody because this whole topic is kind of triggering our theme song is by Restless Spirits and our artwork is by chris fisher so that's where you find those guys murmurs from the morgue you can find on twitter instagram facebook all over the place Eye On Horror you can find twitter instagram facebook all over the place and you can find all five of us at iHorror.com we'll see you in a couple days on murmurs from the morgue so for me James Jay Edwards

Jacob Davidson:

i'm Jacob Davison i'm

Jonathan Correia:

Jonathan Correia

Kelly McNeely:

mcneely

Bri Spieldenner:

where you spill dinner

James Jay Edwards:

your Eye On Horror

A Quick Warning
Intros
What We've Been Watching
Killer Cloths and other Murderous Objects
Correia Watched Mamma Mia Here We Go again 3 times this week
Trigger Warning for Main Topic
I Spit On Your Grave, Promising Young Woman, M.F.A.